GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

As I said earlier, the Boss' restrictor was removed on 5/16/14, here's the SCR update:

http://admin.imsa.com/sites/default/files/uploads/CTSC SCR 5_16_14 v1.pdf

And here's the history according to the SCR updates (which are not always competition bulletins):
1/19/14 - Z28 started the season with an 80mm restrictor - correct.
3/7/14 - Z28 got a 75mm restrictor
5/16/14 - No Z28 updates.
9/12/14 - Z28 got a 68mm restrictor & ran Daytona & Sebring with it in 2015.
4/15/15 - Z28 got a 65mm restrictor for race 3 of the championship at Laguna.

Good job bud. Thank you for posting this.

Not sure why none of that was in the historic updates but good to know. I can't even say how the Boss did last year mid-season. I have hopes for an unrestricted GT350R in CTSC then. I am surprised BMW let this go but they are non-compliant after this year anyway.

What's the point after being devastated for 5 races? The seasons pretty much unrecoverable in May unless you win 4 straight. No sense in even competing or engineering a Boss or GT350 if they are just gonna let BMW and Chevy win because it's their turn.

The z28 shouldn't have been there, nor the Camaro GS.R which is why they got restricted anyway. Non-OEM vehicles in a near OEM class is bad news.

This BS cost Ford the Grand Am Championship during the Boss's maiden season. It won 5 races though and a record 6 in GTS SCCA. That is how you build a car and nearly 100% compliant. Chevy though... brought this Riley car in and slowed everyone down. I think the Camaro should be thrown out like the Challenger because it couldn't homologate a compliant car. Then let the cars and drivers go...

The Camaro literally ruined the class... I stopped watching when NASCAR came in and granted Chevy everything...

Edit: This would finally allow the Boss to produce the class maximum (except the z28 for nearly 2 seasons). Class max is 405rwhp.

The z28 started with an 80mm tube @ 470rwhp.. I think an additional 15mm would take that down to 420-430rwhp maybe. This is now at 3575lbs...

Took them 2 seasons to figure that out? This shit better not go down once the new car gets here. I can see a 60mm restriction looming for sure...

Sponsored

 

[Sabre]

Good job bud. Thank you for posting this.

Not sure why none of that was in the historic updates but good to know. I can't even say how the Boss did last year mid-season. I have hopes for an unrestricted GT350R in CTSC then. I am surprised BMW let this go but they are non-compliant after this year anyway.

What's the point after being devastated for 5 races? The seasons pretty much unrecoverable in May unless you win 4 straight. No sense in even competing or engineering a Boss or GT350 if they are just gonna let BMW and Chevy win because it's their turn.

The z28 shouldn't have been there, nor the Camaro GS.R which is why they got restricted anyway. Non-OEM vehicles in a near OEM class is bad news.

This BS cost Ford the Grand Am Championship during the Boss's maiden season. It won 5 races though and a record 6 in GTS SCCA. That is how you build a car and nearly 100% compliant. Chevy though... brought this Riley car in and slowed everyone down. I think the Camaro should be thrown out like the Challenger because it couldn't homologate a compliant car. Then let the cars and drivers go...

The Camaro literally ruined the class... I stopped watching when NASCAR came in and granted Chevy everything...

Edit: This would finally allow the Boss to produce the class maximum (except the z28 for nearly 2 seasons). Class max is 405rwhp.

The z28 started with an 80mm tube @ 470rwhp.. I think an additional 15mm would take that down to 420-430rwhp maybe. This is now at 3575lbs...

Took them 2 seasons to figure that out? This shit better not go down once the new car gets here. I can see a 60mm restriction looming for sure...

Gee....Stuntman was right all along....the Boss hasn't been restricted since May of 2014.

I counted 9 times that thePill swore the Boss still had a 57mm restrictor until April 2015....and he accused Stuntman of "directs me to a nonexistent document he pretty much made up."

You'd think a "Sorry for the accusation....I was wrong and you were right" statement from thePill would be appropriate right about here....but I didn't see anything like that. He just reverts to his tired old whine:

"The z28 shouldn't have been there, nor the Camaro GS.R which is why they got restricted anyway. Non-OEM vehicles in a near OEM class is bad news."

I guess "Sorry" really is the hardest word.

Must be a tough "Pill" to swallow.

 

[JustACarGuy]

Because some cars (Camaro, Chally) didn't belong in Motorsport. Manufacturers that try and fudge R&D and waiver in always slow the pack down.

At one time, the Boss 302R would qualify w/ a 1.35. Since then, it has been reduced to nearly nothing.

Chevy didn't have, nor could tgey build a competitive option. So the z28 was waivered in.

It's retarded to defend a car that should have never been in CTSC. They were lazy and it shows. That likely won't change this Gen. The 1LE would have been eaten alive...

The GT350 is fast, much faster than the Boss, GT500, ZL1 and z28.

1:35-1:36 is flying for this kinda money. The z28 blew at Laguna.


...and now I am lying through my teeth, even though everyone on this thread was given updates along the way. Another "Truth" crusader from Camaro5. I was always under the impression "Truth" was lost over there.

I am lying, but yet I updated everyone here almost quarterly. IMSA says one thing, Ass clown now says IMSA was incorrect. Tim piggy backed from my comment the day before. You are reaching. I don't know what's more pathetic, you trying to recover this argument or ChefBoyRCarfan emailing me all day to tell me what a loser I am... I said he emailed me all day... like I broke up with him suddenly without explaination. If you can't handle thePill, get off thePill's nuts.


Get it through your skull, the Boss was restricted until just recently.

Z/28 "blew" you say...yet here it is running a 1:37 lap time at Laguna Seca. So...1:35-1:36 is "flying"...but 1:37 blows. Give me a break. I'll give you credit that the GT350 (base) should be much cheaper.

[ame]

GT350 base may be quicker than Z/28 b/c it should have a nice weight and HP advantage, but I doubt it will grip and brake as hard as the Z/28 which should put them close together. GT350R on the other hand, should be an overall better car.

As for your discussion between you and Stuntman...all I see is you referencing your prior posts on this thread (shabby proof) while he is quoting from history books (aka...reliable data). Yet you have the gull to call him out based on what has been posted in this thread. Hilarious.

 

[thePill]

Z/28 "blew" you say...yet here it is running a 1:37 lap time at Laguna Seca. So...1:35-1:36 is "flying"...but 1:37 blows. Give me a break. I'll give you credit that the GT350 (base) should be much cheaper.



GT350 base may be quicker than Z/28 b/c it should have a nice weight and HP advantage, but I doubt it will grip and brake as hard as the Z/28 which should put them close together. GT350R on the other hand, should be an overall better car.

As for your discussion between you and Stuntman...all I see is you referencing your prior posts on this thread (shabby proof) while he is quoting from history books (aka...reliable data). Yet you have the gull to call him out based on what has been posted in this thread. Hilarious.

It should have been faster than a 1:37.8


Stuntman was correct about the restriction. It still doesn't change the power advantage the z28 had, nor its ability to compete elsewhere or function without major changes.

Nor does it save it from the GT350.

Getting pulled in to a nonsense argument is his specialty. He has brought a lot of bad information in the last year. It's butthurt and I'm glad he's feeling better. The 5th Gen Camaro was awful, it sucked professionally, in Amateur classes and I'm sorry to say, it didn't do as well at some tracks as people hoped.

What really has me rolling is the fact that a Camaro can't manage a damn title no matter what the rules do for them. Chevy couldn't build a Boss 302 competitor, so, they built whatever they wanted and charged you poor people an insane amount of money for it. It was a poor effort on Chevy Racings part. It was lazy and very dishonest... Pretty much sums the company up.

I will remind you that Stuntman still believes a lot of his technical arguments. Like the 1/2 tubed chassis and leverage doesn't affect weight dist. He was soooooo adamant that the z28 was going to be accepted into all racing classes. It in fact was a HUGE failure, you can't build a race car that can't race...

Professionally, the 5th Gen sucks... It's awful and the last 5 seasons prove that. The Boss made an impact, the z28 did nothing of value until recently. It's sad the Camaro needed such a large HP advantage. That wouldn't make me feel good about the car at all.

 

[Big reg]

Z/28 "blew" you say...yet here it is running a 1:37 lap time at Laguna Seca. So...1:35-1:36 is "flying"...but 1:37 blows. Give me a break. I'll give you credit that the GT350 (base) should be much cheaper.



GT350 base may be quicker than Z/28 b/c it should have a nice weight and HP advantage, but I doubt it will grip and brake as hard as the Z/28 which should put them close together. GT350R on the other hand, should be an overall better car.

As for your discussion between you and Stuntman...all I see is you referencing your prior posts on this thread (shabby proof) while he is quoting from history books (aka...reliable data). Yet you have the gull to call him out based on what has been posted in this thread. Hilarious.

:clap2:

 

[Stuntman]

Getting pulled in to a nonsense argument is his specialty. He has brought a lot of bad information in the last year. It's butthurt and I'm glad he's feeling better.

I will remind you that Stuntman still believes a lot of his technical arguments. Like the 1/2 tubed chassis and leverage doesn't affect weight dist. He was soooooo adamant that the z28 was going to be accepted into all racing classes. It in fact was a HUGE failure, you can't build a race car that can't race...

None of my posts have been bad information. Its "bad" because its pointing out your errors, false statements, and lies.

Please try to explain how to fit a proper motorsports transaxle and IRS under the S197s while leaving the unibody sheet metal alone in the rear seat area when the S95 Cobras setup barely fit due to the structure. The VDS car is gutted behind the driver to fit the transaxle and a carbon tub (support system) was used to hang the transaxle. If you can't find pictures, use common sense. Imagine trying to stuff a corvette transaxle back there. It does not fit without removing the sheet metal of the seat area.

Quit lying and twisting my statements around. I never said that leverage does not affect weight distribution. You refuse to deflate the tires of any car when on scales to see what the weight distribution change is, which I have always said is insignificant due to the small change in height relative to the CG height and long wheelbase.. You claim tire pressures can cause a 2-3% weight distribution change which is comical. You need to move that decimal a couple.

You tout your likely non existent experience scaling cars but probably live vicariously through Vorshlag Terrys posts. Stop repeating nonsense and go scale a car yourself. Or beg Terry to do the test for you, if you indeed know him or anyone with scales. You constantly lie through your teeth and twist facts around and demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about and anyone with experience can clearly see that.

 

[thePill]

None of my posts have been bad information. Its "bad" because its pointing out your errors, false statements, and lies.

Please try to explain how to fit a proper motorsports transaxle and IRS under the S197s while leaving the unibody sheet metal alone in the rear seat area when the S95 Cobras setup barely fit due to the structure. The VDS car is gutted behind the driver to fit the transaxle and a carbon tub (support system) was used to hang the transaxle. If you can't find pictures, use common sense. Imagine trying to stuff a corvette transaxle back there. It does not fit without removing the sheet metal of the seat area.

Quit lying and twisting my statements around. I never said that leverage does not affect weight distribution. You refuse to deflate the tires of any car when on scales to see what the weight distribution change is, which I have always said is insignificant due to the small change in height relative to the CG height and long wheelbase.. You claim tire pressures can cause a 2-3% weight distribution change which is comical. You need to move that decimal a couple.

You tout your likely non existent experience scaling cars but probably live vicariously through Vorshlag Terrys posts. Stop repeating nonsense and go scale a car yourself. Or beg Terry to do the test for you, if you indeed know him or anyone with scales. You constantly lie through your teeth and twist facts around and demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about and anyone with experience can clearly see that.

A fact is a fact, no matter how you twist it. I think you are pretty sore we weighed GT's lighter than what Ford said. I also think the Euro GTPP Premium @ 3639lbs scares the shit out of all of you. The tire pressure thing had me rolling, only a fool wouldn't see that leverage affects distribution, even though you scale cars all the time. The 1/2 tube frame chassis? Where did you get that? Hows the z28 doing in SCCA? Oh wait, it's not in the SCCA. It is listed but you can't race the car, not that anyone has tried. How about the Nurburgring cage theory? After seeing the suspension bending on the Black z28, I would say a cage is required. That was deformation at it's finest.

Feel free to point out errors, especially if you had the document and I couldn't find it. That would have been a big help and would have saved me a few pages. Errors are fine, lying though? Really? Out of all the info I posted here, sometimes YEARS in advanced, none of it is a lie. Bad info? Sure, that is common, but not lying. I am telling the truth on things like cheating the stop watch, needing a cage for the Ring, Having trouble beating the ZL1, having trouble breaking 160mph, Not being legal or sanctioned in Motorsport, my initial MSRP prediction was my own but I was corrected with the mid-70's shortly after. Are any of Motor Trend z28 test cut and dry? Nope, not a single one. Either tire pressure, or aero, or alignment or oil temps or reruns and retest. It gets tiring...

I am glad you are here, however, some of the technical info you provided didn't make sense... You should understand how a half and half tube chassis or not understanding the scales statements made you appear. A lot of this stupid banter is to protect a vehicle that shouldn't be competing with a 7 liter engine and 60-100HP advantage. There is a deep insecurity with you guys when I talk about the z28, far more than anyone else on the internet. If you seriously thought a z28 killer wasn't coming you were fooling yourself

Even if you removed all the Boss and M3 restrictions, it still would be at a HUGE disadvantage.

I for one do not feel the need to reward a manufacturer that did ZERO work in this area. Yet they are available for pats on the back as are many of it's fans. What made the z28 fast was removed and it no longer was a z28. The Boss Program (like the GT350) started life as a race car. The Boss's development season was in 2010 and the GT350 has literally run the circuit before it was even confirmed to exist.

Put yourself in my shoes... You have a 1LE, a ZL1 and a z28...

The 1LE can't get out of the bed in the morning when everyones looking...

The ZL1, being an 11 second 1/4 mile car, can't manage a damn mid-12 without some serious effort...

The z28 is the Ultimate "Race" car (initially) then was down graded to Track duty.

I have had enough of the 1LE talk, it was a disaster in T2 and apparently it has severe trouble in Solo/TT. That is FACT and nobody wants to talk about it...

I laugh at the ZL1, everytime someone talks about it... I giggle and shuffle it to the rear of my mind. A great seller but short on promises delivered. A handful of ZL1's managed a sub 11, and that is acceptable in GM standards. The Nurburgring time was a joke... Ford beat it with a solid axle...

The z28... From advertising full caged laps, to the missing car itself, it's garbage at $75,000. At that price, I am in a Z06 and you won't see me until you get back to the garage. You can't expect the customer to pay for your endless R&D on this turd.

Then the magazine test... Pete and repeat until you win. I have never seen such a circus of c@ck juggling as I have with the recent Motor Trend and Chevy alliance. Two companies nearing extinction IMO.

But never mind all of that, lets talk about the restrictions that the Mustang and M3 had to endure while a 500+HP Camaro had free reign. Pathetic that even with all the help, the 5th Gen couldn't capitalize. Nevermind that though, a CTSC Camaro GS.R cost $230,000 vs. Ford's $125,000 for the Boss/GT350R. It isn't worth it to me...

...Should I eagerly watch a "Race" that has the rules changed to favor the fat kid? No, I quit watching once NASCAR decided Roush wasn't going to be the Grand Am Champion in 2010. It's bogus... The Camaro shouldn't need all the panels replaced to lose weight. You weigh what you weigh, if they don't like it, engineer a better car. If you don't have a decent engine, build one and compete... Don't let some 3rd Party do all your work.

But that's the real issue here. Not that I disregard Grand Am/IMSA rules and regulation... That GM choose to ignore the rules and regulations just because they couldn't build a better competitive package.

It's more important that I am incorrect on a regulation issue from last year BUT, it's okay for Chevy to cheat the stopwatch at Nurburgring without any debate.

The z28 is GT350R food. It will be painful, it will be over quick. Cheaper, faster, more powerful and more compliant. That is the advantage of building around Motorsport when you build a "Race Car".

As soon as Chevy has an actual competitor oin this fight, I will give them credit. As of now, all the efforts made by the Z/28.R in CTSC is a Pratt and Miller endeavor. Why a car needs a 100HP advantage when the class max was 405 (and they were restricted down to 355) is beyond me. It's embarrassing for sure.

I will watch IMSA when the GT350 arrives, I haven't really sat down and watch a race since 2011. Mostly because the Camaro/Challenger were given limitless range of 3rd party options. Ford was forced to change the Cammer, then the body, then the model, then got restricted because "Race Car". The Boss got hammered in Grand Am in it's 4th or 5th race and stayed that way for 2 years (SCCA too). It won 5 there (almost a Championship in Grand Am) and 6 in SCCA GTS (Paul tied PJ's 1970 Boss 302 record) with 6 wins (and another Boss team had a win too). That is 11-12 wins in only two classes across 5 Boss 302's.

That is dominance... the z28 didn't do sh!t it's first year and they needed almost 100 extra HP in the class. That is bad, no matter how many restrictions were removed.

Call out errors, don't call me a liar. You don't know me good enough to cast that assumption. Were you lying about the 1/2 Tube frame chassis and scales or did you not just know or not have the info?

 

[w3rkn]

Nobody cares about a Z28.

I smirk at the people I see driving that Camaro instead of a Vette. But hey, not everyone can sport a mullet.

 

[Brent302]

Nobody cares about a Z28.

I smirk at the people I see driving that Camaro instead of a Vette. But hey, not everyone can sport a mullet.

 

[Nazgul]

Not everyone can afford a vette. I bet they smirk at guys driving a gt and not a Shelby.

 

[40calcobra]

Not everyone can afford a vette. I bet they smirk at guys driving a gt and not a Shelby.

if you can afford a 75k z28 I bet you can afford a vette. That's why w3krn said "driving that camaro " as in the z28!

 

[thePill]

For almost $80,000, I'm buying a Z06 OR, go Pro with a 302S or 350S. There is absolutely no reason the buy a z28. No matter how much media is dumped into it.

I would have rather seen a package tested on the track and attempt to offer as much of that in homologation as I could. I understand the need to restrict the Boss 302 initially, it was a nightmare for an entire season, both Grand Am and GTS. Those restrictions should have never been imposed just to host a Camaro and Challenger. Even then, after the Z/28.R was announced, those restrictions should have been lifted immediately...

I have an idea, why not let a 444hp Boss @ 3400lbs race against a 505hp z28 @ 3600? Why did they let the z28 drop almost 500lbs while maintaining a 100hp advantage over the 2nd most powerful V8 in the class?

If the z28 wasn't permitted in the class, Ford wouldn't have needed to bring such a non-compliant GT350R into the mix for homologation. Chevy double dipped... Ford is doing the same now. The z28 just hammered the Boss in comparisons. There was no performance ceiling or cost concerns. They just shot for the sky and charged the faithful for it. Using insane equipment was once a limiting factor in homologation. You had to think, will this equipment class? Should I use a larger tank and have my teams pit less? Or do we save race weight with a smaller one? Or is a 7 liter engine a good idea when fuel consumption is a factor... Oh no worries, just put a larger tank in the trunk.

Now, all that sounds petty but it's not. Not when some cars are held to the standard and some cars are not. I know it looks bad a Camaro hasn't won a Pro Championship since 1969. That's why I laugh at the "Road Racing Heritage" people on Camaro5. What heritage? The Camaro won two titles 48 years ago!!! That is probably the worst Motorsport record in the whole of manufacturing...

I don't care if you feel it's your turn, that's not factory competition. Now this class is so far gone it might as well be GT.

The Boss was developed during the 2010 season by Ford Racing w/ Multimatic driving the season. The output and even lap times had a ceiling... They overshot the ceiling to some degree and earned restriction pretty early on.

This made an OEM Boss 302 very, very competitive with the M3 as far as performance goes. That was the benchmark and main competitor in Grand Am. At the time, these cars were pretty close to OEM. Over time, all this extra crap was allowed to compensate for the restrictions. Like I said, since then, the class has gotten out of hand. The cars are becoming more and more GT Class Spec than it was intended.

Fortunately for AM, there is a Base GT350 option that looks like it could be pretty cheap. I would have rather seen a Base GT350 racing.

 

[Stuntman]

A fact is a fact, no matter how you twist it. I think you are pretty sore we weighed GT's lighter than what Ford said. I also think the Euro GTPP Premium @ 3639lbs scares the shit out of all of you. The tire pressure thing had me rolling, only a fool wouldn't see that leverage affects distribution, even though you scale cars all the time. The 1/2 tube frame chassis? Where did you get that? Hows the z28 doing in SCCA? Oh wait, it's not in the SCCA. It is listed but you can't race the car, not that anyone has tried. How about the Nurburgring cage theory? After seeing the suspension bending on the Black z28, I would say a cage is required. That was deformation at it's finest.

Feel free to point out errors, especially if you had the document and I couldn't find it. That would have been a big help and would have saved me a few pages. Errors are fine, lying though? Really? Out of all the info I posted here, sometimes YEARS in advanced, none of it is a lie. Bad info? Sure, that is common, but not lying. I am telling the truth on things like cheating the stop watch, needing a cage for the Ring, Having trouble beating the ZL1, having trouble breaking 160mph, Not being legal or sanctioned in Motorsport, my initial MSRP prediction was my own but I was corrected with the mid-70's shortly after. Are any of Motor Trend z28 test cut and dry? Nope, not a single one. Either tire pressure, or aero, or alignment or oil temps or reruns and retest. It gets tiring...

I am glad you are here, however, some of the technical info you provided didn't make sense... You should understand how a half and half tube chassis or not understanding the scales statements made you appear. A lot of this stupid banter is to protect a vehicle that shouldn't be competing with a 7 liter engine and 60-100HP advantage. There is a deep insecurity with you guys when I talk about the z28, far more than anyone else on the internet. If you seriously thought a z28 killer wasn't coming you were fooling yourself

Its kind of funny that you peg me as a GM fanboy when I have 2 Fords in the garage right now (I had 3 last year). You seem to be blinded by your assumption that i'm a GM lover and immediately disagree with me when I constantly point out your errors.

You REALLY need to stop twisting what I said around and LYING. I NEVER said that leverage does not affect weight distribution. You constantly state this until you make yourself believe that I truly said it when I keep saying that due to the height of a cars CG (say Mustang or sports car, not an SUV), and the length of the car's wheelbase, changing tire pressure or even deflating the front or rear axle's tires will NOT change the front to rear weight distribution 2-3% like you claim, and it's actually ~1/100th of that. Please go test it, and since you probably dont have access to a car on scales, beg Terry to do it. You will realize I was right all along and can quit this annoying endless banter.

A cage is still not worth 6+ seconds at the nurburgring and a cage will not reinforce the subframe which moves due to the soft subframe bushings. Even if you add a cage to strengthen a chassis 10-fold, the subframe will still flex on its rubber bushings and you will still see the deflection as seen in a video posted a while ago.

The z28 is the Ultimate "Race" car (initially) then was down graded to Track duty.

Why does this bother you? I don't see you complaining that you can't go buy a Porsche GT3, Ferrari Speciale, or McLaren 675 and take it to your local racetrack and series and go race it? None of these fit 'rules' which seems to be an irrelevant and big deal for you. The Z28 is a hell of a car in the same sense as these 3, and offers similar track competence for a fraction of the price. I still don't agree with you to restrict the development of street cars to meet racing rules since cars that are raced are completely stripped, parts changed, etc... anyway, so why limit making a street car better?

Call out errors, don't call me a liar. You don't know me good enough to cast that assumption. Were you lying about the 1/2 Tube frame chassis and scales or did you not just know or not have the info?

You have lied through your teeth constantly. Like taking credit away from Tim Hillard by stating that YOU were the first to post the camaro's 68mm restrictor, among many others. Again, you continue to twist what I say around which further demonstrates your snakey, slippery, deceiving nature. I never said the VDS car was 1/2 tubeframe. I said that the rear structure was gutted to fit the transaxle and a carbon 'tub' support structure was used to mount the transaxle to the unibody.

Since you are unwilling to verify things and especially since you continue to twist my words around and quote me saying incorrect and false statements to discredit me, I'm getting pretty tired of defending myself from your misleading tactics to try to win arguments.

 

[thePill]

Stuntman, I think you have a serious issue about your initial assumptions being incorrect. Most of this side-banter is to somehow redeem yourself in your technical assumptions.

Let it go.

The above statement about the whole Grand Am/IMSA issue is painfully accurate. It's a f@cked up situation but it happens. We will not see factory racing anytime soon.

The cage was lame, advertising caged times is even worse. I have serious doubt any Pony car can lap the Ring in under 8 without additional support. The whole Ring scene is something gullible young people eat up. The ZL1 was stacked, it looked like a chicken coupe inside. That is a big help and at some point, a better cage design could be a huge factor in Ring times. If you don't believe that, you haven't been around it.

Stop with the scales, you made a mistake, it happens. Not a lot of people outside of Pro/Am know that.

I do my best for Grand Am/IMSA though, as you will see in my previous post months ago, I am not pleased with the direction. I don't watch GTS either because a Camaro ZL1 and KIA compete there. At one time, they were down to earth. When Paul won 6 and the Championship. Or T1.... A composite bodied Camaro should not be allowed to race there.

It would make me feel better if the z28 wasn't allowed a huge power advantage as well as 3rd Party development. It's kinda lame... The GS.R was just as bad with zero restrictions and a 3400lbs race weight. Why the z28 was allowed even more power and no weights penalty sucks... It has ruined the potential for an OEM class, in more than one organization (ZL1 in SCCA).

 

[thePill]

Enough with the tube frame please, it was funny, it's over now. No the GT3 car isn't a tube frame from the driver back (as you said). An OEM front section does not weld well to a tube frame structure.

What it all came down to, you can Google better than me. Where I rely on some logic, experience, education and common sense... Most all of it committed to memory :lol:

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