GT350 vs. Z/28

[908ssp]

It is not the bore that needs reducing it is the stroke.

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[thePill]

It is not the bore that needs reducing it is the stroke.

The stroke is 94mm? If so then yes, stroke needs reduced.

Edit: Wait, that wouldn't work. That would only be a 5 liter.

At 94x92.7 it's at 5.147 liters. A 92.7x94 is 5.0.

5.2 is 94x94 square.

 

[Stuntman]

The Voodoo uses a 94x92.7 Bore and Stroke, slightly oversquare. If in fact these measurements are true, the 5.2 Voodoo isn't really a 5.2 at all... It is a 5.1.

Regardless, the z28 isn't car enough to handle this things potential Power to Weight ratio. There had to be a competitive and marketable reason for a FPC V8 attempt, one over 5 liters at that. Motorsport and BMW would be the only reason an engine like this exist...

If you don't see a BMW FPC, Ford will likely lower the Bore back down to the Coyote's 92.7mm. This reduction in both mass and weight will see a 5.0 Liter Voodoo touching 9000RPM and would have a slightly faster rev than a 5.2.

I have a feeling if Motorsport organizations start restricting these Voodoo engines, Ford will opt to decrease the bore, limit the max output and save tons of engines from failures from over restriction (like the Boss). With PTWA in use, 5.2 can get heads turning while a more competitive (maybe DI) 5.0 Voodoo is the answer for over restriction.

Don't expect the Flat Plane Crank V8 to go anywhere. Now that Ford has a very good offering for a very good price, it will plague Road Racing...

There's already a BMW FPC in racing... Why would Ford do that? I think 5.2 is pretty fixed for production.

Isn't the Coyote's bore 92.2mm? 92.2x92.7 (bore x stroke) = 4,951cc

 

[thePill]

There's already a BMW FPC in racing... Why would Ford do that? I think 5.2 is pretty fixed for production.

Isn't the Coyote's bore 92.2mm? 92.2x92.7 (bore x stroke) = 4,951cc

The Condor was in production some time before the Trinity.

..and yes, it is 92.2, 97.2 is the stroke. The Voodoo bore is 97.2 which is the Coyote stroke. Edit: That is wrong too, the Voodoo bore is 94 and the stroke is 92.7. So, the stroke is shared. It would still need to have the bore reduced to the Coyote's.

There is absolutely no reason for a large displacement FPC other than peak HP and maybe some torque. I imagine a 5.0 DI Voodoo would be capable of a little more.

Ford's FPC will likely shrink if it is in fact the new basis for Pro engines. The Coyote/Boss already had too much power.

[ame]

 

[Erik427]

Ford should have used a shorter stroke and kept the Voodo at 5 liters for two maybe three reasons. First reason, a shorter stroke would have been easier to balance. 2nd reason, piston speeds would be a bit slower. 3rd reason, keeping the 5.0 label.

 

[Sasuketr]

I still don't understand why there is a huge price difference between a base 30k gt and a base 52.5k gt350? If you look at assumed specs of the gt350, the 65 hp horsepower difference doesn't make sense to charge more than 20k! If you look at ecoboost to gt which is like 4k difference in cost but 125hp difference in horsepower! To get a gt350 you ll be paying $346 extra per hp! Something is not right here! If a base ss camaro comes out with the lt1 450hp 450 lbft, for a little over 30k then it might turn out to be the best bang for your buck and then followed by the gt as well!

 

[OppoLock]

I still don't understand why there is a huge price difference between a base 30k gt and a base 52.5k gt350? If you look at assumed specs of the gt350, the 65 hp horsepower difference doesn't make sense to charge more than 20k! If you look at ecoboost to gt which is like 4k difference in cost but 125hp difference in horsepower! To get a gt350 you ll be paying $346 extra per hp! Something is not right here! If a base ss camaro comes out with the lt1 450hp 450 lbft, for a little over 30k then it might turn out to be the best bang for your buck and then followed by the gt as well!

-better engine
-better transmission
-better suspension
-better brakes
-new fenders, hood, front bumper, rear bumper, and spoiler
-interior modifications

Seriously man? A car's value shouldn't be based on its peak power output.

 

[Sasuketr]

Those items you listed up there shouldn't cost me more than 7 grand on top of a base gt! Well you know that for 20 grand you are getting all above with a supercharger, carbon ceramic breaks, carbon fiber wheels, plus all the weight saving replacements from Ford Racing! It doesnt add up to spend that money on gt350. If it was gt500 then maybe!

 

[thePill]

Those items you listed up there shouldn't cost me more than 7 grand on top of a base gt! Well you know that for 20 grand you are getting all above with a supercharger, carbon ceramic breaks, carbon fiber wheels, plus all the weight saving replacements from Ford Racing! It doesnt add up to spend that money on gt350. If it was gt500 then maybe!

The engine alone could be an $11,000 difference, the Tremec is probably $2000-$3000 more. There is close to $20,000 there...

 

[thePill]

Ford should have used a shorter stroke and kept the Voodo at 5 liters for two maybe three reasons. First reason, a shorter stroke would have been easier to balance. 2nd reason, piston speeds would be a bit slower. 3rd reason, keeping the 5.0 label.

Right now, it looks like the Voodoo uses the Coyote's stroke to come to the 5.2 (or 5.147). The best thing for them to do now is to decrease the larger 94mm bore.

Decreasing the piston mass and weight can increase the 8200rpm up to 9000+. Question is, where does the 5.2 make its peak and what does the curves look like.

I think the organizations will dictate what happens to the 5.2. My intuition tells me that it will meet resistance and earn restriction pretty early on.

I don't really mind an organization equalling out a playing field, I just don't think intake restriction is a sound solution. It can damage the engine as many Boss 302 drivers have come to find out. I would rather the tweaking be the competing manufacturers issue, NOT the restricting body that enforces the rules.

For some strange reason, the Voodoo's bore was increased to 94mm. Once the engine is discussed in detail, maybe we will know why. I am dying to know HOW they managed a FPC over 5 liters without the extreme NVH.

Once DI arrives, who knows... Maybe the Coyote is endangered of becoming a FPC design. If the Coyote was designed with a FPC in mind, I am sure DI, SC, EB and TT testing has been considered too. A future proof engine indeed...

Edit: A buddy of mine said "That engine might not have the fuel delivery for anything above it's redline. Chances are, direct injection would let it produce power above that". I think once the GT500 is shown and DI is used (Governing body permitting), Ford may adjust the bore some. Maybe not down to the Coyote's 92.2, maybe exactly square at 92.7x92.7.

At 92.7x92.7, it comes to exactly 5.005... What an incredible engine that would be. A completely square, flat plane crank V8 at exactly 5 liters... Check the Rod:Stroke ratio and I bet it is completely optimal. When numbers like these start adding up, it means it was designed like this FIRST and then moved to a 5.2. You don't just by chance align all the planets and stars by accident. These are key measurements that have been optimized or maximized in almost every way. It doesn't happen on accident.

Something even BMW, MB, Aston, Jag, Porsche or Ferrari hasn't been able to accomplish.

(I have help on engine discussions)

 

[OH5GT 2 S550]

Those items you listed up there shouldn't cost me more than 7 grand on top of a base gt! Well you know that for 20 grand you are getting all above with a supercharger, carbon ceramic breaks, carbon fiber wheels, plus all the weight saving replacements from Ford Racing! It doesnt add up to spend that money on gt350. If it was gt500 then maybe!

Also you're paying some for the name GT 350 and the limited numbers these are going to be produced. This on top of what Oppolock stated. If you don't like the price, nobody is forcing you to buy one!

 

[Stuntman]

I think there's a reason BMWs S65 (&P65 FPC race motors), McLarens 12C/650S/675LT and Ferraris 458/488 have much shorter strokes and rev higher than 8,000rpm... Its not just piston weight, especially since some of the mentioned motors have similar 92-94mm bores.

 

[Erik427]

Right now, it looks like the Voodoo uses the Coyote's stroke to come to the 5.2 (or 5.147). The best thing for them to do now is to decrease the larger 94mm bore.

Decreasing the piston mass and weight can increase the 8200rpm up to 9000+. Question is, where does the 5.2 make its peak and what does the curves look like.

I think the organizations will dictate what happens to the 5.2. My intuition tells me that it will meet resistance and earn restriction pretty early on.

I don't really mind an organization equalling out a playing field, I just don't think intake restriction is a sound solution. It can damage the engine as many Boss 302 drivers have come to find out. I would rather the tweaking be the competing manufacturers issue, NOT the restricting body that enforces the rules.

For some strange reason, the Voodoo's bore was increased to 94mm. Once the engine is discussed in detail, maybe we will know why. I am dying to know HOW they managed a FPC over 5 liters without the extreme NVH.

Once DI arrives, who knows... Maybe the Coyote is endangered of becoming a FPC design. If the Coyote was designed with a FPC in mind, I am sure DI, SC, EB and TT testing has been considered too. A future proof engine indeed...

Edit: A buddy of mine said "That engine might not have the fuel delivery for anything above it's redline. Chances are, direct injection would let it produce power above that". I think once the GT500 is shown and DI is used (Governing body permitting), Ford may adjust the bore some. Maybe not down to the Coyote's 92.2, maybe exactly square at 92.7x92.7.

At 92.7x92.7, it comes to exactly 5.005... What an incredible engine that would be. A completely square, flat plane crank V8 at exactly 5 liters... Check the Rod:Stroke ratio and I bet it is completely optimal. When numbers like these start adding up, it means it was designed like this FIRST and then moved to a 5.2. You don't just by chance align all the planets and stars by accident. These are key measurements that have been optimized or maximized in almost every way. It doesn't happen on accident.

Something even BMW, MB, Aston, Jag, Porsche or Ferrari hasn't been able to accomplish.

(I have help on engine discussions)

Wouldn't the smaller bore shroud the valves? I would think that would hurt how the motor breathes.

 

[Sasuketr]

Well i think people have really high expectations on the gt350 and we ll wait and see what it is really offering! I m not a die hard Ford, GM or Dodge fan! I am an honest consumer who wants the best for the money! I currently love my stang even though the gears grind the transmission makes a thud noise and other stuff also i m sure the gt350 will have those problems as well and paying that much money on that car doesn't make sense to me!

 

[thePill]

Wouldn't the smaller bore shroud the valves? I would think that would hurt how the motor breathes.

A 4 valve shouldn't have major shrouding issues. Yes, it will be tighter than the 94mm bore but, it should be on par with the Coyote. 2mm is the thickness of two dimes, I'm sure the heads can accommodate.

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