GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

Yep, pissing contest that goes on forever. Can't wait to see the GT350 run at Sebring so we'll have something else to talk about.

I am interested to see where thePill's GT ends up at race weight after all the mods and weight reduction. I was just thinking that throwing the 2015 resonator in the trunk of the 2011 would get things close to even, with almost a 50lb. swing. That would be my first mod on the new Stang, 23lbs of useless stainless and fiberglass. I'm assuming the GT350 will not have that huge paperweight installed.

I was told the airbag weights but I'm not sure about the source. Apparently, there was about 32lbs of airbag before. He claims there is almost 90lbs in airbags now.

It isn't adding up though. Maybe 70lbs but I can't find any heavier units to even support that. Maybe 30 vs. 60 but not 90lbs.

Many are pre-concerned about the balance. Don't be...

On 50 to E, we get a decent 54/46. I wouldn't use anymore fuel unless you are at a VIR or Sebring type track. Keep in mind, we observed a 6 miles to gallon average at many tracks. I can't even say this was "flat out" so, it could be worse. The S550 registers about the same so, we can use that as rule of thumb.

Our balance comes back when we add in a cage AND, we can get a clean 50/50 if you air down the rears more than the front.

Some look at front/rear balance and need a 50/50. Unfortunately, this is difficult in every front engine vehicle. Even the z28 has a 55/45 distribution with an 1/8th tank. With a cage, the S550 gets pretty close to an even 4 corner balance race weight. Something the S197 was at a disadvantage in that respect.

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[thePill]

I'm sorry but a mechanical certification from a 'tech' school does not = a degree in mechanical engineering.

Yeah, because there is no way I am pursuing a Bachlors of Science... Nor would I have time for Criminal Justice, Applied Science, a CCAF, 5 Technical Degrees or Business.

 

[Stuntman]

Many are pre-concerned about the balance. Don't be...

On 50 to E, we get a decent 54/46. I wouldn't use anymore fuel unless you are at a VIR or Sebring type track. Keep in mind, we observed a 6 miles to gallon average at many tracks. I can't even say this was "flat out" so, it could be worse. The S550 registers about the same so, we can use that as rule of thumb.

Our balance comes back when we add in a cage AND, we can get a clean 50/50 if you air down the rears more than the front.

Some look at front/rear balance and need a 50/50. Unfortunately, this is difficult in every front engine vehicle. Even the z28 has a 55/45 distribution with an 1/8th tank. With a cage, the S550 gets pretty close to an even 4 corner balance race weight. Something the S197 was at a disadvantage in that respect.

Cages tend to be centrally-located so I don't think you will see a huge shift of weight bias to the rear, especially when you loose the weight of the rear seats/backs, speakers, etc...

You wouldn't use more fuel than 50mi to E? For a flying lap or a 20-30 minute session?

Your statement in bold is pretty inaccurate. Lowering the rear tire pressures is NOT going to affect your F-R weight distribution, nor would raising or lowering the front or rear ride heights to an appreciable degree.

 

[thePill]

Cages tend to be centrally-located so I don't think you will see a huge shift of weight bias to the rear, especially when you loose the weight of the rear seats/backs, speakers, etc...

You wouldn't use more fuel than 50mi to E? For a flying lap or a 20-30 minute session?

Your statement in bold is pretty inaccurate. Lowering the rear tire pressures is NOT going to affect your F-R weight distribution, nor would raising or lowering the front or rear ride heights to an appreciable degree.

Wow... You need to do some research. Lowering and raising tire pressure does alter your forward and rear weight distribution.

Tsk, tsk...

Don't talk chassis...

We observed 6 miles per gallon during competitive racing, NOT a flying lap. Flying laps are for magazine comparisons.

Cages ARE NOT centrally located... Where did you hear that from? The plate mounts just ahead of the B pillar support and is top heavy. Control you air pressure and tune your suspension after the weight is added.

 

[Stuntman]

Wow... You need to do some research. Lowering and raising tire pressure does alter your forward and rear weight distribution.

Tsk, tsk...

Don't talk chassis...

Actually it doesn't. Completely deflate your tires or even remove them off the wheel and weigh the car. It will have the same F-R distribution. Your continued belief that it does further shows you don't know what you're talking about.

We observed 6 miles per gallon during competitive racing, NOT a flying lap. Flying laps are for magazine comparisons.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, 50 miles to E is ~ 1/4 tank and 4 gallons. At 6mpg (which I believe), you're good for 24 miles before being parked on the side of the track. On a 2 mile track that would give you 12 laps which would take up 24 minutes if that lap is a 2:00 long. You would run out of gas before the end of a 30 minute session and would likely have fuel starvation issues well before that point... Do you still think it's a good idea to not run more than 1/4 tank of gas?

Cages ARE NOT centrally located... Where did you hear that from? The plate mounts just ahead of the B pillar support and is top heavy. Control you air pressure and tune your suspension after the weight is added.

It depends on the design of the cage but the A-pillar mounts by your feet and runs up the A-pillar to the B-pillar with cross-bars, there's a cross bar that typically goes through the dash, and the door bars are all centrally located. Yes the main B-pillar hoop is the prominent central component at the B-pillar and there are rear-mounted down bars, but as a whole, the cage isn't heavily biased to the rear like you're claiming.

 

[thePill]

Actually it doesn't, and your continued belief that it does further shows you don't know what you're talking about.


As mentioned earlier in the thread, 50 miles to E is ~ 1/4 tank and 4 gallons. At 6mpg (which I believe), you're good for 24 miles before being parked on the side of the track. On a 2 mile track that would give you 12 laps which would take up 24 minutes if that lap is a 2:00 long. You would run out of gas before the end of a 30 minute session and would likely have fuel starvation issues well before that point... Do you still think it's a good idea to not run more than 1/4 tank of gas?


It depends on the design of the cage but the A-pillar mounts by your feet and runs up the A-pillar to the B-pillar with cross-bars, there's a cross bar that typically goes through the dash, and the door bars are all centrally located. Yes the main B-pillar hoop is the prominent central component at the B-pillar and there are rear-mounted down bars, but as a whole, the cage isn't heavily biased to the rear like you're claiming.

Our 3rd Gen has a small cage, the loop is no more than 120 inches of .120. It weighed 55lbs. That was just the loop, no cross bar for the harness, no rear tower mounts, no plates and no doors. An 8 point can be anywhere from 80lbs to 110lbs. That should recover your fuel...

Now, these SHOULD mount right to your rear towers. That will place most of your cage weight on the rear. 95% of the weight is behind the driver.

 

[thePill]

Actually it doesn't. Completely deflate your tires or even remove them off the wheel and weigh the car. It will have the same F-R distribution. Your continued belief that it does further shows you don't know what you're talking about.


As mentioned earlier in the thread, 50 miles to E is ~ 1/4 tank and 4 gallons. At 6mpg (which I believe), you're good for 24 miles before being parked on the side of the track. On a 2 mile track that would give you 12 laps which would take up 24 minutes if that lap is a 2:00 long. You would run out of gas before the end of a 30 minute session and would likely have fuel starvation issues well before that point... Do you still think it's a good idea to not run more than 1/4 tank of gas?


It depends on the design of the cage but the A-pillar mounts by your feet and runs up the A-pillar to the B-pillar with cross-bars, there's a cross bar that typically goes through the dash, and the door bars are all centrally located. Yes the main B-pillar hoop is the prominent central component at the B-pillar and there are rear-mounted down bars, but as a whole, the cage isn't heavily biased to the rear like you're claiming.

1st, you are incorrect about tire pressure affecting your weight distribution. Someone will be along shortly to confirm this I'm sure...

2nd, Heat Racing... We only do 7-12 laps for 3-5 heats. You are thinking Pro in which we would need a full tank.

3rd, Read my previous post.

 

[Stuntman]

Our 3rd Gen has a small cage, the loop is no more than 120 inches of .120. It weighed 55lbs. That was just the loop, no cross bar for the harness, no rear tower mounts, no plates and no doors. An 8 point can be anywhere from 80lbs to 110lbs. That should recover your fuel...

Now, these SHOULD mount right to your rear towers. That will place most of your cage weight on the rear. 95% of the weight is behind the driver.

Sounds more like a "roll bar" if it does not encapsulate the driver like a "roll cage" would. A roll "cage" extends forward and surrounds the driver like I said in my previous reply, so the weight is not rearward biased like your roll "bar" example. You really need to stop backpedaling and changing your story.

2nd, Heat Racing... We only do 7-12 laps for 3-5 heats. You are thinking Pro in which we would need a full tank.

3rd, Read my previous post.

You will still likely run into fuel starvation issues or run out of fuel with 12 laps (24 minutes as stated earlier). Plus you will have to refuel for every session which is inconvenient and not many people do, especially for track days.

 

[thePill]

Some good info!!!

I love the prices!!!!

Sounds more like a "roll bar" if it does not encapsulate the driver like a "roll cage" would. A roll "cage" extends forward and surrounds the driver like I said in my previous reply, so the weight is not rearward biased like your roll "bar" example. You really need to stop backpedaling and changing your story.

You will still likely run into fuel starvation issues or run out of fuel with 12 laps (24 minutes as stated earlier). Plus you will have to refuel for every session which is inconvenient and not many people do, especially for track days.

Who cares, point is, there is almost a whole fuel tank worth of weight in most cages. A cage sees more of a rearward distribution than a gas tank mounted lower or on the vehicles center of gravity. A cage alone would bring an empty 2015 GT back up to it's advertised 53/47, most likely more as some can see up to a 6% difference depending on how top heavy it is. If we are a little light in the rear, we can run a lower pressure in the rear tires to flirt with a 50/50 as is. Chance are, we would be over a 50/50 but close is enough for being theoretical. The real issue is left/right distribution as it affects turning more that front/rear. Also, front/rear is easily manipulated where left/right posses some issues... One being you can't shift weight in the tire pressure like front/rear. It isn't back peddling, it is breaking down a situation to help illustrate the point.

50 to E is rule of thumb, you need to take the track, number of laps, conditions and other things into account. I personally use 50 to E because you can finish at most tracks in Heat with that amount.

I don't mind refueling in between sessions... That is nothing compared to the other things we check. We wrecked our 4th Gen on Saturday, got it fixed Saturday night, made to start 13th (lost our starting position) and finished 5th in AS last season. Not a big deal...

 

[Stuntman]

Who cares, point is, there is almost a whole fuel tank worth of weight in most cages. A cage sees more of a rearward distribution than a gas tank mounted lower or on the vehicles center of gravity. A cage alone would bring an empty 2015 GT back up to it's advertised 53/47, most likely more as some can see up to a 6% difference depending on how top heavy it is.

You keep saying "cage" when it appears you are referring to a "roll bar". Is this intentionally ambiguous so you can change your story when proven wrong in the future?

Are you now claiming that the height of the "roll bar" has an influence on a car's static F-R weight distribution?

If a cage weighs 100lbs and is located directly above the gas tank (in the rear seat area), it would not change the static F-R weight distribution any more than 100lbs of fuel mounted lower. While the CGs are different and dynamic weight transfer would be affected, the static weight distribution would not be different.

If we are a little light in the rear, we can run a lower pressure in the rear tires to flirt with a 50/50 as is.

Again, incorrect. Tire pressure does not affect static weight distribution, and no one in motorsports changes tire pressures to attempt to vary a car's weight distribution. That just really bad advice...

Chance are, we would be over a 50/50 but close is enough for being theoretical. The real issue is left/right distribution as it affects turning more that front/rear. Also, front/rear is easily manipulated where left/right posses some issues... One being you can't shift weight in the tire pressure like front/rear. It isn't back peddling, it is breaking down a situation to help illustrate the point.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and it appears you have no practical experience in this area either.

50 to E is rule of thumb, you need to take the track, number of laps, conditions and other things into account. I personally use 50 to E because you can finish at most tracks in Heat with that amount.

I don't mind refueling in between sessions... That is nothing compared to the other things we check. We wrecked our 4th Gen on Saturday, got it fixed Saturday night, made to start 13th (lost our starting position) and finished 5th in AS last season. Not a big deal...

So what class do YOU run in? What tracks have YOU run at 50mi to E and made it to the end of the heat without stumbling on fuel? The stock tank does not scavenge fuel all that well and I am skeptical with 'your' results.

Who is "we"? What team? Who was driving? What class is "AS"?

 

[thePill]

You keep saying "cage" when it appears you are referring to a "roll bar". Is this intentionally ambiguous so you can change your story when proven wrong in the future?

Are you now claiming that the height of the "roll bar" has an influence on a car's static F-R weight distribution?

If a cage weighs 100lbs and is located directly above the gas tank (in the rear seat area), it would not change the static F-R weight distribution any more than 100lbs of fuel mounted lower. While the CGs are different and dynamic weight transfer would be affected, the static weight distribution would not be different.


Again, incorrect. Tire pressure does not affect static weight distribution, and no one in motorsports changes tire pressures to attempt to vary a car's weight distribution. That just really bad advice...

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and it appears you have no practical experience in this area either.


So what class do YOU run in? What tracks have YOU run at 50mi to E and made it to the end of the heat without stumbling on fuel? The stock tank does not scavenge fuel all that well and I am skeptical with 'your' results.

Who is "we"? What team? Who was driving? What class is "AS"?

If it has tubes at the door, it should be a roll cage. That was the point of discussing the loop because, it was the only weight I was present for. The loop alone weighed 55lbs. All tubing should be .120 so, merely using the 120 inches of that as a reference. That is without the rear tower braces, doors, cross brace and plates. I think you are making a big deal out of nothing.

Again, if you had no idea your tire pressure affects your weight distribution, then there is NO WAY you know anything about cages or roll bars. In fact, I have doubt that you have been around a scale session at all.

Currently, I run no classes. I sold my '67 shell and 2011 once I seen the '15 in person. Last year, I was limited to crew... I post updates to Friends and Family on Facebook.

However, I was considering driving for Mazda last season but needed a partner. It would have been Miata Spec. I could not cover the entire schedule myself due to a conflicting Drag Racing passion.

I still intend on racing a Miata at some point.

What is AS?!?!?!

 

[Sasuketr]

Guys i wish not but there is a huge chance the loaded or a base gt350 might weight as much as or even higher than a regular gt! It seems for the R package they are following what GM did to z28 and removing creature comforts and adding carbon fiber. The car is still going to be tail happy. They can move the battery and some stuff in the back to compensate the weight distribution! My estimate 3505lb gt350 r and no less than that!

 

[02gtnh]

You keep saying "cage" when it appears you are referring to a "roll bar". Is this intentionally ambiguous so you can change your story when proven wrong in the future?

Are you now claiming that the height of the "roll bar" has an influence on a car's static F-R weight distribution?

If a cage weighs 100lbs and is located directly above the gas tank (in the rear seat area), it would not change the static F-R weight distribution any more than 100lbs of fuel mounted lower. While the CGs are different and dynamic weight transfer would be affected, the static weight distribution would not be different.


Again, incorrect. Tire pressure does not affect static weight distribution, and no one in motorsports changes tire pressures to attempt to vary a car's weight distribution. That just really bad advice...

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about and it appears you have no practical experience in this area either.


So what class do YOU run in? What tracks have YOU run at 50mi to E and made it to the end of the heat without stumbling on fuel? The stock tank does not scavenge fuel all that well and I am skeptical with 'your' results.

Who is "we"? What team? Who was driving? What class is "AS"?

You will never get a answer on the "we". I have now come to realize that reading thepill post, you need hipwaiters as the BS gets real deep. I wonder what he will say when the R shows its real weight, when about a year ago he said it would weigh 3380 lbs as fact.

 

[thePill]

Guys i wish not but there is a huge chance the loaded or a base gt350 might weight as much as or even higher than a regular gt! It seems for the R package they are following what GM did to z28 and removing creature comforts and adding carbon fiber. The car is still going to be tail happy. They can move the battery and some stuff in the back to compensate the weight distribution! My estimate 3505lb gt350 r and no less than that!

I think that is a good estimate. If the Base GT350 is sub-3700lbs, I would be impressed.

I think that only leaves the GT350R at 3565-ish.

The Track Package could be another 50-80lbs too. They said 135lbs lighter than the Track Package GT350 right?

It is possible the GT350 ends up being the light one in the 3650-ish range. The GT350TP would be about equal to the GTPP in the 3720-3750lbs range. That would make a sub-3600lbs GT350R more difficult.

However, if the Power to Weight Ratio is true (6.63), how much would the 5.2 need to produce?

At exactly 3600lbs, it would need to produce about 543hp. I was thinking 520hp would be outstanding. 530+ seems out of reach in my opinion...




Anyway, here is some pretty nice pics of the Killer Bee posted by TN elsewhere. Being in Pittsburgh, I love the Black and Gold...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chorwedel/

You will never get a answer on the "we". I have now come to realize that reading thepill post, you need hipwaiters as the BS gets real deep. I wonder what he will say when the R shows its real weight, when about a year ago he said it would weigh 3380 lbs as fact.

I never said Fact, I looked at a picture and made an estimate to debunk the 200-300lbs weight gain claim by a trusted "Insider". Besides, I was correct the structure was smaller and it was only 2.2lbs heavier in BIW. The whole structure and support panels more than likely got lighter. As I said then, if the Mustang does gain any weight, it will be in content. Trust me, once I seen the standard equipment list I changed my mind real quick. I never expected the S197's Brembo/Boss and Premium packages would have become mostly standard.

I think a good majority of my claims actually held water. Maybe not on the S550 because it was a big secret... I think most other areas I touch on are at least honest to the best of my knowledge or, has some sound reasoning behind it.

I called attention to the z28 not being able to beat the ZL1 for the entire 2 week session. Called the top speed...

Got the ZL1's weight almost exactly correct.

Reported the 7:30-7:40 GT500 Ring run.

Helped guide the S550 Renders.

Was bragging about a 600+ GT500 way back in 2010.

Predicted the sales drop on the 5th Gen at year 3.

Predicted the '14 refresh...

Had a full 2013 Z/28 Concept for C5 in 2011...

I have been as helpful as any random internet guy in my opinion.

If people didn't like what I have been writing, why does the View counter keep going up? Seems like some people are interested and more than likely get my point.


I had passion for the Camaro at one time...

I am glad they are at least trying to listen to me

Needs more grill area ya' dumb asses!!!!

 

[Stuntman]

If it has tubes at the door, it should be a roll cage. That was the point of discussing the loop because, it was the only weight I was present for. The loop alone weighed 55lbs. All tubing should be .120 so, merely using the 120 inches of that as a reference. That is without the rear tower braces, doors, cross brace and plates. I think you are making a big deal out of nothing.

Cages have A-pillar tubes that connect to the B-pillar hoop, door intrusion bars, bars that connect the L to R side under the dash and at the top of the windshield. You continue to be ambiguous with your posts and flip flop on everything you say.

Door bars are very heavy as is all of the work forward of the B-pillar on a "cage". You keep saying "cage" which has a fairly central mass while you talk in a context referring to a "roll bar" which is indeed entirely behind the driver. You have always been very difficult person to communicate with due to your vagueness and inconsistencies.

Again, if you had no idea your tire pressure affects your weight distribution, then there is NO WAY you know anything about cages or roll bars. In fact, I have doubt that you have been around a scale session at all.

That's quite ironic because you repeatedly show your ignorance on many fronts. I'm not sure if you just regurgitate what others have told you, what you read online, or from very little first hand experience, but you do not understand the concept of weight distribution and continue to incorrectly state that tire pressures have an influence on F-R static weight distribution, which it does not. If you hang around all of these mysterious unnamed shops like you claim to. Try deflating the rear tires and see what the change shows on the scales.

Currently, I run no classes. I sold my '67 shell and 2011 once I seen the '15 in person. Last year, I was limited to crew... I post updates to Friends and Family on Facebook.

However, I was considering driving for Mazda last season but needed a partner. It would have been Miata Spec. I could not cover the entire schedule myself due to a conflicting Drag Racing passion.

I still intend on racing a Miata at some point.

What is AS?!?!?!

I have no clue what "AS" is. You stated: "...and finished 5th in AS last season."

You tell me...

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