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Why Ford is keeping the Mustang

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Zelek

Zelek

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Well actually I meant two separate cars. A Mustang GT and a BMW i3. Plus an electric motorcycle and a petrol one. And an estate car for any useful motoring.



Then I can save the world and enjoy myself. And two camper vans, an electric and a diesel. And two cars on the IOM electric and petrol, and two in Spain. This CO2 revolution is going to be fun.


I'm serious by the way.
You aren't saving the world by going electric. The process to create those vehicles (batteries and metals needed) then the power grid to keep charging them is just polluting the planet in different ways. That makes no sense. The only thing you're saving is gas.

That's like Tesla claiming they are a green company. Lol.
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Fatguy

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You aren't saving the world by going electric. The process to create those vehicles (batteries and metals needed) then the power grid to keep charging them is just polluting the planet in different ways. That makes no sense. The only thing you're saving is gas.

That's like Tesla claiming they are a green company. Lol.

Like hydro-electric. Like solar. Like wind farms. Like all sorts of other alternatives. Oil will still be needed but there is only so much left and the whole global warming thing.
 

Norm Peterson

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What, like the Probe 2?
'Probe' might well be a more appropriate name, maybe along with the Mustang name in the same manner as Mini gets modified with secondary names like 'Cooper' and 'Countryman'.

But I think the name 'Probe' specifically still carries too much baggage.


Norm
 

Hack

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Typical performance for a future all electric Mustang:

0-60 in 2.3 seconds

9 second quarter

215mph top speed


That’s right - nothing to see here...


The only way it “survives as an empty shell with no soul” is if the driver has no soul.
We all have beating hearts. Maybe this will sound crazy to you, but IMO an ICE is like the car's beating heart. I got an opportunity to drive around in an electric golf cart last week. I just despise electrics. Hopefully we can go to hydrogen powered ICEs rather than losing that feeling/flavor that ICE powered cars have.

And I don't care how fast a vehicle is. I can't drive 2 seconds 0-60 during my morning commute. I will get ticketed. But I can listen to awesome V8 noises every day, whether I'm stuck in traffic, obeying all posted limits and laws, etc.. Even if I only really push it occasionally at the track, I still get a lot of pleasure from the ICE engine in my car.

I'm fine if you buy an electric vehicle. I don't want one.
 

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the whole global warming thing.
Fact: the polar ice caps have actually increased in size and gotten larger since Al Gore said they would be fully melted years ago. :D
 

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Norm Peterson

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Ok Norm, you have always been a stand up guy so I’ll be honest with you.

Second, for a few years I drove many vehicles every day like 5 most days.

There was at least one hybrid every day. As such I have some experience on the matter.
You have had some, ummm, interesting experiences. I'm betting that engineer no longer likes quiet cars quite as much as he used to.


I just wished for once someone would say: “Make me the fastest and best performing car you can design with the budget given you!” Instead of them telling you to make it fast, but not too fast... :tsk: :crazy:
With that ↑↑↑ in mind, ↓↓↓

Typical performance for a future all electric Mustang:
0-60 in 2.3 seconds
9 second quarter
215mph top speed
"Fast" always seems to end up meaning "fast in a straight line", which was the only thing the original muscle cars were any good at. As good as those numbers sound, for me their one-dimensional focus can't avoid having a 1960's feel.

It's taken 50 years for the Mustang to be seen as having a true sense of balance among the various performances, straight off the production line. Returning to a straight line emphasis would turn me off, and lose me as a customer.


The only way it “survives as an empty shell with no soul” is if the driver has no soul. My guess is that the driver will have a big smile on his face. The new hybrid could totally shame the GT if they let the engineers loose on the car. But Ford wants to gently wean its base off the V8. So they give you something close but not quite as fast as a GT. That ain’t right in my books!
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter of "soul". As good as those acceleration number sound - and I'm perfectly willing to stipulate that they could be met - they're not going to feel the same and they're not going to be as satisfying when all you have to do is push a button or turn a dial to select "go forward" and let some computer maximize those performances in traction-controlled and stability-controlled comfort for you. To me, that kind of experience lies somewhere between a video game and an amusement park ride.


I say put out the best products and let the consumers decide. But the good news is Mustang is here to stay and it’ll be wicked fast!
I'm afraid that "putting out the best products and letting the customers sort it all out" with "wicked fast" as the primary pitch would still result in cars with the performance emphasis on the straight line, with the corner-carving options left to die on the vine. Half a ton of batteries would have something to do with that (Tesla's Model 3 batteries total about 800#).


Within the current and recent Mustang domain, I'm the GT/PP2 buyer who'd never consider a GT500. Same outlook I had ten years ago when I got my GT (vs that year's GT500), same outlook I expect to still have ten years from now.



Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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Well actually I meant two separate cars. A Mustang GT and a BMW i3. Plus an electric motorcycle and a petrol one. And an estate car for any useful motoring.
I really did get a "two separate cars" impression. But I still believe that Ford needs to provide some sort of name differentiation between the two.

Would Mustang GT-E work for you?


Norm
 

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Guys, the reality is that even in an electric car the tires still squeal, the road noise, bumps, water, stones are still there; the wind turbulence is still there and you also get that pinned to the seat experience! I got that once early on and that hooked me into torque speed off the line. You really don’t get that in today’s Mustang. That was a design compromise but it’s there regardless. I get the engine noises argument but this is a different form of propulsion.


My guess is when the price of gas rises double or triple today’s price in the future, the all electric Mustang will mysteriously get a “soul” and the aftermarket will carry all sorts of mods for your electric Mustang. :lol:

Funny nobody mentioned the price of gas? There’s always that!
 

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Guys, the reality is that even in an electric car the tires still squeal, the road noise, bumps, water, stones are still there; the wind turbulence is still there and you also get that pinned to the seat experience! I got that once early on and that hooked me into torque speed off the line. You really don’t get that in today’s Mustang. That was a design compromise but it’s there regardless. I get the engine noises argument but this is a different form of propulsion.


My guess is when the price of gas rises double or triple today’s price in the future, the all electric Mustang will mysteriously get a “soul” and the aftermarket will carry all sorts of mods for your electric Mustang. :lol:

Funny nobody mentioned the price of gas? There’s always that!

Gas prices won't double or triple. The economy would collapse before that happened. And if they double or tripled here, do you know how much Europe would be paying? A lot... The answer is a lot.

It isn't like you're saving all that much in gas with your Mustang now compared to an Accord or Camry.
 

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Norm Peterson

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... you also get that pinned to the seat experience! I got that once early on and that hooked me into torque speed off the line.
I do get that, it's a pretty enchanting Sirens' song for lots of people. Readily accessible power is like that, no waiting, no having to work for it.


You really don’t get that in today’s Mustang.
What you got in trade was the notion of a powerband, and in less than WOT driving a sense of where the engine feels most comfortable operating for the conditions of the moment - and as an element of personal satisfaction what it takes from you to keep that engine happy. I suppose you could call having to do that at least theoretically a flaw, but perhaps it's having a few flaws that makes for 'character' or 'soul' . . .



My guess is when the price of gas rises double or triple today’s price in the future, the all electric Mustang will mysteriously get a “soul” and the aftermarket will carry all sorts of mods for your electric Mustang. :lol:
If electric cars ever develop a 'soul', it'll probably be because the term 'soul' itself will no longer have meaning in the context of cars. Most everything will be accomplished through polite requests to some computer.


Norm
 

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You have had some, ummm, interesting experiences. I'm betting that engineer no longer likes quiet cars quite as much as he used to.



With that ↑↑↑ in mind, ↓↓↓


"Fast" always seems to end up meaning "fast in a straight line", which was the only thing the original muscle cars were any good at. As good as those numbers sound, for me their one-dimensional focus can't avoid having a 1960's feel.

It's taken 50 years for the Mustang to be seen as having a true sense of balance among the various performances, straight off the production line. Returning to a straight line emphasis would turn me off, and lose me as a customer.



I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter of "soul". As good as those acceleration number sound - and I'm perfectly willing to stipulate that they could be met - they're not going to feel the same and they're not going to be as satisfying when all you have to do is push a button or turn a dial to select "go forward" and let some computer maximize those performances in traction-controlled and stability-controlled comfort for you. To me, that kind of experience lies somewhere between a video game and an amusement park ride.



I'm afraid that "putting out the best products and letting the customers sort it all out" with "wicked fast" as the primary pitch would still result in cars with the performance emphasis on the straight line, with the corner-carving options left to die on the vine. Half a ton of batteries would have something to do with that (Tesla's Model 3 batteries total about 800#).


Within the current and recent Mustang domain, I'm the GT/PP2 buyer who'd never consider a GT500. Same outlook I had ten years ago when I got my GT (vs that year's GT500), same outlook I expect to still have ten years from now.



Norm
The coming GT500 would certainly strike your fancy given its goals, that I am sure, although like me, you'd probably prefer a GT350 still.
 

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I do get that, it's a pretty enchanting Sirens' song for lots of people. Readily accessible power is like that, no waiting, no having to work for it.



What you got in trade was the notion of a powerband, and in less than WOT driving a sense of where the engine feels most comfortable operating for the conditions of the moment - and as an element of personal satisfaction what it takes from you to keep that engine happy. I suppose you could call having to do that at least theoretically a flaw, but perhaps it's having a few flaws that makes for 'character' or 'soul' . . .




If electric cars ever develop a 'soul', it'll probably be because the term 'soul' itself will no longer have meaning in the context of cars. Most everything will be accomplished through polite requests to some computer.


Norm


You’re timings perfect Norm as I just got back from Tesla Motors.



Tesla_3.jpg


Tesla_6.webp


Tesla_2.webp


Tesla_4.jpg



Yes I checked out the Model S P100D

Third fastest car in the world 0-60 at 2.5 seconds.


I wish I could have taken you there. You could have taken some of the cars for a ride. I think it would open your eyes in more ways than one. :D As a track guy you know F1 is basically hybrid and all electric is the next step though nobody wants to acknowledge it... Anyway, if I could I would let you loose on a Tesla Roadster at your favourite track for a day. I truly believe you would be faster and could probably find ways to enhance the performance because you have more experience than the kids driving these things. Don’t sell yourself short. New tech is nothing to fear but to be embraced by enthusiasts.

When we stop trying new things we become irrelevant - and we as a group of old farts are not there yet.


BTW: It is super cool to see these cars speed off with no sound. Like the Road Runner without the “beep-beep”...




[ame="[MEDIA=youtube]EuE-GpNV0sY[/MEDIA]"]
 
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In 2011 ford discontinued the ranger in the us and 8 years later they are eating crow with the 19 ranger...WHY? You ask, because they lost a lot of compact truck lovers to toyota. The exact same thing will happen for the people wanting a sedan. Ford will be doing honda and toyota a favor again. Because not everyone wants a minivan crossover hatchback cuv or whatever you call them hideous things. But more power to them.
 

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The coming GT500 would certainly strike your fancy given its goals, that I am sure, although like me, you'd probably prefer a GT350 still.
Both true.

(make mine an 'R')


Norm
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