2018 Adaptive Cruise question.

[awmustang]

Very interesting discussion
I love my ACC, but in heavy traffic its pretty pointless, as i think under 20mph it disengages anyway.
I use it a lot on the motorways (highways) and as someone said, will pull out shoot past a few cars, then pull back in and let it take over and slow the car down.
What my passengers find scary and also Steph, is when a car cuts in on you, and you wait for the car to decide when to brake, have to admit do have my foot hovering above the brake.
Also when you start to pull out, and feel the car wanting to leap, without you doing anything, that scares the dodo out of her
Also find its better for the petrol

You cannot engage the adaptvie cruise until you are traveling faster than 20 mph, but once it is engaged it will stay active all the way down to 12 mph. Why 12? Couldn't tell you, but that's what it is. Once the car goes below 12, you have to wait until you are above 20 to turn it back on again, but if you can stay above 12 the car will accelerate and brake to match the car in front of you.
The one major downside to ACC in traffic is that it keeps an appropriate following distance, which no one else does and therefore, people can (and usually will) dart in front of you since the gap is so much larger than what everyone else is doing.

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[Norm Peterson]

Well if it was never intended for that, it would be engineered to disengage in automatic transmission cars in that situation. It doesn't because it IS intended for that.

I think the intention is more to develop an experience base for the eventual Levels 4 and 5 autonomous cars, which certainly won't be fitted with manual transmissions.

I won't argue that your skills would not decay because I don't know you that well. You shouldn't assume mine will for the same reasons.

When it comes to anything requiring skill, everybody's decay with reduced use. Even yours. You're only kidding yourself if you think yours won't. Or hasn't.

But I'll will submit to a polygraph or practical tests (at your expense) to confirm I can still read a speedometer (maintain a speed) and recognize a proper following distance. Those abilities have nothing to do with what your feet are doing. Now if you are implying that someone would lose the ability to manipulate the throttle to keep the speedometer in one place, if you can produce one such person

Currency of skill isn't all-or-nothing, so no, you won't lose it completely. But short of suddenly experiencing some serious medical issue, deterioration of skills isn't an abrupt all-to-nothing kind of thing, and chances are very, very strong that any given individual won't even notice that it's been happening.

In fact, I'm going to suggest that the driver who never intentionally drives anywhere near his car's limits doesn't have enough basis to argue against diminished skill. I'm talking about autocross, HPDE, even drag-racing levels of car use. Or just extreme braking, which you could practice on your own on the street (with due regard for the distance to any following traffic). You lose off your peak long before it shows up enough under more moderate conditions to recognize.

Take a year off from golf, or bowling, or most any other activity involving skill and see if you can pick right up where you left off like you can when it's only a few days or a week off. Back when I had a day job, my morning commute was such that I could practice limit braking just shy of ABS intervention. I know I've lost a half step, maybe a whole step since then . . . in spite of the occasional HPDE experience I've gotten into since. Speaking of which, I fully expect to be no better than a couple of seconds a lap slower around my home track when I pick that activity back up maybe later this month.

Staying on top of speed and following distance and judging upcoming needs for the same isn't any different except for it being easier to not notice that you've slipped a bit. Especially if you're apt to be engaged in hands-free phone use (I'm intentionally mentioning this), where the mental energy spent there comes out of . . . your focus on driving your car, maybe?

On conceding that some "they" should ONLY drive with adaptive cruise, my point about using ACC as the default speed control is that doing so amounts to steering people directly toward that end. You're suggesting that they specifically allow their own skills to slide by using ACC so that eventually you'd want them to have to use it.

I get the fear of the unknown some people have. I have them too until first hand experience banishes them.

First hand experience can sometimes strengthen the distrust, if what the car does is contrary to what you'd do (and needlessly so). Been there, too.


Norm

 

[HoosierDaddy]

In fact, I'm going to suggest that the driver who never intentionally drives anywhere near his car's limits doesn't have enough basis to argue against diminished skill.

Can't argue with that but since I've been a performance driving instructor, not sure the point of that in this context. To my recollection, nobody fitting that description has argued against diminished skill. If you are talking about some other thread, post a link.

I would say that the driver who has not driven an ACC car extensively doesn't have enough basis to argue against it. It's nice to theorize about something but not everything that sounds right in your head plays out in the real world. Its like when I was telling Federer a better way to serve. Boy was I surprised when he had been right all along.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Can't argue with that but since I've been a performance driving instructor, not sure the point of that in this context.

Simply that a diminishment in skill is more noticeable up around an individual's peak capabilities than it is at levels that do not challenge him anywhere near as much. Plus, it's got to be something that he actively knows enough to notice in the first place, which I doubt happens at all in most peoples' street driving.


Norm

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Simply that a diminishment in skill is more noticeable up around an individual's peak capabilities than it is at levels that do not challenge him anywhere near as much. Plus, it's got to be something that he actively knows enough to notice in the first place, which I doubt happens at all in most peoples' street driving.

Yeah, but whatayagonnado?

A society sets minimal standards. And it has to be that way. If it wasn't, those of us who drive more miles/hours than you would be bemoaning how we have to share the roads with the lessor skilled/experienced people like you.

My 89 year old father is still a better than average driver. Scares the hell out of me to ride with him because average isn't anything to write home about. Adaptive cruise in his SUV actually makes him safer to share the road with because Adaptive cruise is better than the average driver for following distances, reactions to sudden obstacles, etc.. Adaptive cruise is not going to be distracted at some moment of truth.

I would not mind if someone with questionable skills (by my standards) got a little worse due to a technology that greatly reduces the need for those skills.

Maybe you've heard the saying: Don't let a desire for perfection stand in the way of the good.

 

[TexasRebel]

I won't argue that your skills would not decay because I don't know you that well. You shouldn't assume mine will for the same reasons.

What are you doing while driving that is more important than driving? :shrug:

 

[TexasRebel]

I would say that the driver who has not driven an ACC car extensively doesn't have enough basis to argue against it.

I will argue against it for the same reason I drive stick...

I don't want the car to do anything on its own without input from me.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I will argue against it for the same reason I drive stick...

I don't want the car to do anything on its own without input from me.

You chose a car that adjusts the air fuel ratios based on conditions, that cancels turn signals, that lowers the windows slightly to make opening the door easier, that eases off the brakes on wheels that hit an oil slick or black ice. A real man re-jets carbs every few hours, spins into trees, etc..

I wouldn't even be surprised if you let your car mute music when a call comes in, or let it call 911 when you get t-boned, etc..

So.....basically you just want a car that won't do something you don't want it to but are okay with it doing things you do want it to. That makes you just like everybody else in the world. Not cool to want anyone else to be denied what they want because YOU don't want it

The good news is you won't be forced to use ACC, or stop smoking, etc..

 

[HoosierDaddy]

What are you doing while driving that is more important than driving? :shrug:

Who ever said something else is more important than driving?

You aren't one of these people who won't use a remote to change TV channels are you? ;)

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

I will argue against it for the same reason I drive stick...

I don't want the car to do anything on its own without input from me.

That's fine, but for some of us there's a convenience level to it that's hard to pass up. ACC makes freeway driving SO much nicer. I'm cruising at 80 and some jackass gets in front of me going 72? No worries, I don't have to reset my CC, it just slows down and maintains distance. It's great...for me...when I want to just cruise.
I don't use it a lot, but when I do it reduces a lot of frustration with fast lane campers.

You don't like it? Cool, you don't need to use it. I love it (and have so far not forgotten how to brake and haven't rear ended anyone in my Mustang or my "dumb" F150 without any of these features).

 

[Norm Peterson]

That's fine, but for some of us there's a convenience level to it that's hard to pass up. ACC makes freeway driving SO much nicer.

Convenience is specifically one of the things about ceding control over driving tasks to some computer or other automation. It means that the driver doesn't have to stay quite as connected to the tasks of driving as he must in the absence of such convenience, leading to the real possibility that he eventually won't stay as connected to his driving all the time.

Staying within Tex's framework of stick-shift driving, you know as well as I do that drivers who rarely drive stick have little awareness about when to shift or willingness to keep the engine at an rpm consistent with an amount of throttle response appropriate to conditions.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yeah, but whatayagonnado?

A society sets minimal standards. And it has to be that way. If it wasn't, those of us who drive more miles/hours than you would be bemoaning how we have to share the roads with the lessor skilled/experienced people like you.

Maybe I don't have as many miles under my belt as you. But you don't know me, or much about how I drive, or what the value of those miles has added up to. On the other hand, that I haven't rear-ended another vehicle in over 50 years and never in 55 years at a speed above 2 or 3 mph has to count for something with regard to my thoughts on the use of ACC. Simply put, to date I haven't needed it; there have been no incidents that it could have prevented or mitigated.

I would seriously object to allowing my skills deteriorate because I chose the convenience of ACC. Maybe if/when I reach your Dad's age, I won't have gained enough additional experience to offset the slowing down that typically comes with advancing age and I might have a different take on the matter. There is some longevity on both sides of my family, so I've got a fair chance.

FWIW, I've got at least one 'tell' that will give me a heads-up to re-think things like this.

On the matter of staying current . . . I was hoping that the parking lot to the neighborhood pool was snow-covered enough to get in a little refresher time on how much or little it takes to get the car sliding in the white stuff and what it takes to rein it back in again and pointed in the right direction. Turned out it was too close to just wet and the tires just had too much bite for it to be of much use .

Maybe you've heard the saying: Don't let a desire for perfection stand in the way of the good.

I'm working at being better than just 'good'. With reasonable success, apparently.


Norm

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

Convenience is specifically one of the things about ceding control over driving tasks to some computer or other automation. It means that the driver doesn't have to stay quite as connected to the tasks of driving as he must in the absence of such convenience


Norm

No.

That's not what it means.

It simply means I don't have to turn off and resume the CC repeatedly. It doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. Maybe that's what you would do, but don't put that on me.

 

[Norm Peterson]

No.

That's not what it means.

It simply means I don't have to turn off and resume the CC repeatedly. It doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. Maybe that's what you would do, but don't put that on me.

I don't mean that you aren't paying any attention at all, just that you're not paying quite as much attention. It's a percentage-play kind of thing rather than a binary all or nothing.


Norm

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

I don't mean that you aren't paying any attention at all, just that you're not paying quite as much attention. It's a percentage-play kind of thing rather than a binary all or nothing.


Norm

Man, you must be super stealthy to be creeping in my (tiny) backseat to watch me drive without me even knowing.
I know, I know, it's full of dog hair that I need to vacuum back there.

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