Tuning Decisions

[dragonacc]

I'm just asking questions, guys. I'm honestly trying not to come across as abrasive, and I'm sorry if I do so. In all honesty, most people think I'm an ass until they get to know me. I don't have a problem w/ that, so I think others shouldn't either. I'm also not questioning for other people. I like the AP for the most part, and will consider it if my questions are answered in a way I find reasonable, like anyone. I may just ask more or different questions.

I have asked for some kind of quantitative performance results of the car. All the tuners here have good reputations and are not going to sell us something that melts a piston. As for datalogs, I also don't think they'd be willing to give out information to other tuners willy-nilly, would they?

I agree that there is no consensus on the net regarding not something as simple as an idler pulley, but a harmonic damper on the crank. This came up because I questioned the legitimacy of a company that sold parts w/ little understanding of how they effect an engine, and Ian defended selling them by saying they had plenty of proof and testing validating their sale. I'm simply asking for that proof. Since there is such a lack of consensus, such proof could easily put an end to the debate. I'm open to being wrong, and love to learn. As for why I have yet to provide anything, I would rather get into what will no doubt be a long-winded highly technical explanation via PM, as I stated in a previous post, since, like you say, this forum is about the EB. I do think the overall issue is one of concern when trying to decide what company to put one's trust into.

Make sense?

It makes sense, it just seems like Cobb is the only one getting questioned. I don't think anyone besides Livernois has posted track times but you haven't questioned any of the other tuners about their results. Plus your post that was removed sounded like you were pretty butt hurt... ;)

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[Herr_Poopschitz]

Again, one of the reasons is likely because they use a mustang dyno vs. dynojet that everyone else is using.

As far as why Cobbs numbers are lower, I'd prefer to hear it from them instead of speculation by members. No offense, I'm sure you can understand.

Also, Cobb has never claimed (I don't think) their expertise is more so than any of the other tuners here.

They claimed an expertise in small displacement turbo'd engines earlier in the thread. Since everyone else is a 'traditional' Mustang tuner that deals w/ V8s primarily...well, draw your own conclusion.

If you are so certain cobb is wrong in their stance, why not take a bit of time and find all the complaints out there of damaged engines using Cobb's pully or dampener or whatever the part in question is?

Subaru guys never seem to take their engines apart. I'd like to examine oil samples and check out bearing wear. I've also read of some other issues, but again, this is an EB forum.

Were you there calling Livernois out when they were claiming x hp gains over stock when their stock run was using 87 and tuned run was using 93?

No, because they disclosed all of the info. If they're not hiding anything, I don't have a problem w/ it. Anyone concerned that they were somehow manipulating numbers should be more than happy w/ the effort they put in by actually racing the car (multiple times) and providing video of it.

 

[Gungnir888]

I'm just asking questions, guys. I'm honestly trying not to come across as abrasive, and I'm sorry if I do so. In all honesty, most people think I'm an ass until they get to know me. I don't have a problem w/ that, so I think others shouldn't either. I'm also not questioning for other people. I like the AP for the most part, and will consider it if my questions are answered in a way I find reasonable, like anyone. I may just ask more or different questions.

I have asked for some kind of quantitative performance results of the car. All the tuners here have good reputations and are not going to sell us something that melts a piston. As for datalogs, I also don't think they'd be willing to give out information to other tuners willy-nilly, would they?

I agree that there is no consensus on the net regarding not something as simple as an idler pulley, but a harmonic damper on the crank. This came up because I questioned the legitimacy of a company that sold parts w/ little understanding of how they effect an engine, and Ian defended selling them by saying they had plenty of proof and testing validating their sale. I'm simply asking for that proof. Since there is such a lack of consensus, such proof could easily put an end to the debate. I'm open to being wrong, and love to learn. As for why I have yet to provide anything, I would rather get into what will no doubt be a long-winded highly technical explanation via PM, as I stated in a previous post, since, like you say, this forum is about the EB. I do think the overall issue is one of concern when trying to decide what company to put one's trust into.

Make sense?

Fair enough, myself and most of my close friends are a-holes. The quality of your posts belies the user name. In this thread it just seems there is an agenda. I'll freely admit I am not familiar with Livernois, and I'm not thrilled with an 87 octane baseline to prove results. Their real world results speak on their own and are very impressive.

Several of the other communities I have been a part of have posted sanitized data logs. Things like timing, boost, A/F ratio and knock threshold. These don't generally give away the secret sauce of the tunes, but do provide essential data and warning signs to the consumer. I would like for the EB Mustang community to have the same openness. When competition is open, the consumer wins.

The EB is going to appeal to people have driven nothing but American iron, but is also going to attract those from the import world. Both camps have a lot of knowledge and experience to draw from, so let's try not to alienate anyone who might be driving performance on the new platform.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Well, I am going to drop some info and give some insight into what we do, why we do it, and what makes us different than others in the industry.

I will lead with this. Being a great Ford tuner gives you zero advantage on an EcoBoost vehicle, because it tunes differently than any other Ford. Likewise, Being a great import tuner gives someone zero advantage on an EcoBoost because it doesn't tune like an import.

There is one thing, and one thing only that gives someone an advantage on an EcoBoost, and that is spending years, and years understanding the logic, functions, limits, and uniqueness of these engines. Something we have been doing since 2009.

We do all of our development in house, on our own vehicles. To date we have owned more than 14 different EcoBoost vehicles, and have more on the way. This gives us the unique advantage of being able to test these vehicles long term, and continue to develop new, upgraded calibrations for them over time, along with calibrations to match up with our upgrade packages.

Because of doing everything in house, we aren't reliant on software updates from someone at a different facility, nor are we reliant on awaiting results from our software from a calibrator at a different facility. This ensures that what we adjust actually does what it's supposed to do.

Another area to talk about is Datalogging. Many people ask us why we don't have it, offer it, or want it from our customers. The reasoning behind that is simple, but goes against what so many have been trained is "proper". First and foremost, it's about what needs to be datalogged, and how the information is processed. Tuning an EcoBoost cannot be properly done with any simple logging device. Someone might get lucky occasionally while making tune adjustments and looking at the incorrect data, but it's just that. Luck. We invested a great deal of finances into our Datalogging system so we can datalog in house, and ensure proper results, and accurate data.

Here's an example. Many people datalog boost, and air/fuel ratio on an EcoBoost, however, neither of these items are broadcast by the computer, so the software converts this to a value based off of what the computer actually spits out. But, what if the conversion is done wrong? what if it's looking at the wrong sensor? What if they're looking at inferred, or desired rather than actual? If you take a step back, you realize how easy it is to make adjustments off of incorrect data. Even worse, you are going out, and making WOT pulls on the street in 3rd and 4th gear (5th for you manual owners), just so you can send datalogs back and forth because the tune wasn't right in the first place. Not only are you risking your personal safety, but the safety of the engine.

Most of you might be baffled by this, but by us understanding the way these work, and by doing actual development, rather than having a customer be a test bed, we don't need to see datalogs. It is how we are able to set records time and time again without ever seeing a datalog from a customer.

With all of that said, I think it should be pretty obvious why we are the only ones with track results. It's not like Michigan is the only state with dragstrips

 

[foghat]

As far as why Cobbs numbers are lower, I'd prefer to hear it from them instead of speculation by members. No offense, I'm sure you can understand.

None taken. Though it is not speculation that they use a mustang dyno (unless they got a new dyno, I guess) and it is fairly well known that mustangs read lower than dynojets.

Though I will admit their baseline was not that much lower than the others and the gains not as impressive - seemingly anyways.

Cobb already tried explaining why their numbers might be lower. Aside from all the vendors sharing their tuning data with each other, I am not sure how you expect cobb to definitively explain why their numbers are lower. Could be as simple as others running a pound or 2 more boost and cobb doesn't feel comfortable doing that (justified or not). Or maybe it is all dyno. Or maybe they just aren't as good as others. But now we are very much talking speculation.

They claimed an expertise in small displacement turbo'd engines earlier in the thread. Since everyone else is a 'traditional' Mustang tuner that deals w/ V8s primarily...well, draw your own conclusion.

Claiming to be a small displacement specialist does not have to imply "we have more experience than everyone else here." But I see what you are saying.

Subaru guys never seem to take their engines apart. I'd like to examine oil samples and check out bearing wear. I've also read of some other issues, but again, this is an EB forum.

Maybe, I certainly can't say one way or the other. But if this truly is a problem, I'm sure someone is out there complaining about it.

No, because they disclosed all of the info. If they're not hiding anything, I don't have a problem w/ it. Anyone concerned that they were somehow manipulating numbers should be more than happy w/ the effort they put in by actually racing the car (multiple times) and providing video of it.

This is true, and I looked at the thread, Livenois didn't even start it (i.e. post the results). Their first post they did disclose 87. I notice the baseline on the website is a fair bit higher, am guess that one is on 93.

 

[15EBStang]

I just thinks it's odd and somewhat comical that only one company has posted actual real world track results. Everyone has posted dyno graphs, some more impressive than others but myself, I could care less about a number a machine puts out. It's a tuning tool. The proof is in the pudding.. I.E. Track results. I'm not going to name other places, but there was quite a bit of talk about another car going to smash the record and there were photos of the car at the track on the companies Facebook page, but every time someone asked what it ran, they avoided the question.

 

[JJ@WMS]

I just thinks it's odd and somewhat comical that only one company has posted actual real world track results. Everyone has posted dyno graphs, some more impressive than others but myself, I could care less about a number a machine puts out. It's a tuning tool. The proof is in the pudding.. I.E. Track results. I'm not going to name other places, but there was quite a bit of talk about another car going to smash the record and there were photos of the car at the track on the companies Facebook page, but every time someone asked what it ran, they avoided the question.

Not true in our case.

We were the first to dyno and track test the 2015 EB. Bought it Monday Oct 6th and it was at the track Wed Oct 8th for its first runs.

13.8 @ 103 bone stock. 13.0 @ 106 with our base tune only. Thats .8 and 3mph better then stock and ours was considered quite quick/fast for stock times. (considering everyone else is stating base stock runs in the mid 14's)

We also tuned an auto EB at the track on Halloween and that car went from 14.3's down to 13.5 with just a tune from us. I guess those arent considered track results.:headbonk:

We havent stripped the car down, installed slicks/skinnies and put a kill tune on it just to say we did so. All we have done is test and refine our daily driver 93 octane torque tune. A tune that is available with our SCT tuning device and its also a tune where you will get the exact same results, dyno and track that were achieved by us already.

As development goes further in tuning we will incorporate those tuning changes into future free updates for our customers. We like to take baby steps because we want to provide a safe and reliable tune thats proven.

Our dyno results are also in line with what other companies have stated they will be providing as a "base" or "stage" tune.

When it all comes out in the wash and your daily driven EB owner does some simple modifications including a tune I think you will find most of them running around the same times as eachother no matter who tunes them. The difference will be in who can custom tailor the tuning needs to the particular customer and do so with awesome customer service. Sure there will be the higher powered quicker cars (ours is under the knife at the moment for a few goodies) and those cars will test the limits as we plan on doing but our first 6 weeks with the car was devoted to developing base tunes that the majority of people looking for a bit more performance would be happy with and once these tunes get out there to the masses I think you will see that happen just as we planned.

Thanks for your time,

JJ

 

[Gungnir888]

Here's an example. Many people datalog boost, and air/fuel ratio on an EcoBoost, however, neither of these items are broadcast by the computer, so the software converts this to a value based off of what the computer actually spits out. But, what if the conversion is done wrong? what if it's looking at the wrong sensor? What if they're looking at inferred, or desired rather than actual? If you take a step back, you realize how easy it is to make adjustments off of incorrect data. Even worse, you are going out, and making WOT pulls on the street in 3rd and 4th gear (5th for you manual owners), just so you can send datalogs back and forth because the tune wasn't right in the first place. Not only are you risking your personal safety, but the safety of the engine.

Would you mind extrapolating on this a bit? The stock ECU doesn't have tables for boost or air fuel? I understand it might not be spitting out a number that says 13:1, or 20 psi, and translating the data tables may be part of your secret sauce, but I am fascinated if the computer is literally not calculating air flow or fuel flow at some level.

Some tuners on some platform have played tricks with those tables, but I guess I assumed (maybe a bad play on my part) that the major tuners on the board would have more integrity than that. If you feel there is the potential for that kind of abuse, that reaffirms the need for open data logs and tables.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Gung, foghat...thanks for the civility.

The quality of your posts belies the user name.

Ha, well, I like to think I can smell 'it' from a mile away...that, or I still have a childish fascination w/ poop jokes.

The EB is going to appeal to people have driven nothing but American iron, but is also going to attract those from the import world. Both camps have a lot of knowledge and experience to draw from, so let's try not to alienate anyone who might be driving performance on the new platform.

Agreed. I was really close to buying a Boss a few years ago. After a lengthy test drive I thought the car w/ just headers would be enough power to satisfy me, then focus on the suspension. Just couldn't get over the retro look though (never was a fan), and passed. I like the current 5.0, but if the 2.3 can get to 450+ or so hp (120 mph trap speeds are all I want) and get substantially better mpgs, since I'd just use one as a fair weather daily driver/road trip car, why not? I don't think of myself as a knuckledragger that absolutely has to have a V8 just for an exhaust note...I have a couple other cars for that. Oh, and yes, I'm an equal-opportunity offender.

JJ, in 15EB's defense, I was unaware you had done any post-tune testing as well. Did you guys notice quicker spooling w/ the off road down pipe?

 

[JJ@WMS]

Gung, foghat...thanks for the civility.



Ha, well, I like to think I can smell 'it' from a mile away...that, or I still have a childish fascination w/ poop jokes.



Agreed. I was really close to buying a Boss a few years ago. After a lengthy test drive I thought the car w/ just headers would be enough power to satisfy me, then focus on the suspension. Just couldn't get over the retro look though (never was a fan), and passed. I like the current 5.0, but if the 2.3 can get to 450+ or so hp (120 mph trap speeds are all I want) and get substantially better mpgs, since I'd just use one as a fair weather daily driver/road trip car, why not? I don't think of myself as a knuckledragger that absolutely has to have a V8 just for an exhaust note...I have a couple other cars for that. Oh, and yes, I'm an equal-opportunity offender.

JJ, in 15EB's defense, I was unaware you had done any post-tune testing as well. Did you guys notice quicker spooling w/ the off road down pipe?

We have done stock track testing, tune only track testing, tune and OR pipe track testing, and posted all of those results. I guess since we did all of this testing a few weeks before anyone else got an EB car it kinda got forgotten.

The problem with all that testing is that we smoked the stock clutch so our results with the OR pipe, tune and Airaid CAI were not realized at the track but the dyno results were very good and previously posted. We most likely have more passes on our car then anyone else with an EB. All of which on 19's, DR's, full weight and not slicked and skinnied up like others have done.

The OR pipe helps quite a bit with spooling and topped off with the Airaid CAI the car flat out pulls hard, really hard where it never did before high up in the rpm range where it usually flattens out and even our dyno results showed huge gains up high with those products and our tuning.

Once our car is back together with a clutch that can hold the power we will most likely take it down south to a track that is open and do a weekend of track only testing, again on 19's with DR's and at full weight. Sure we will eventually take weight out and put on a set of slicks/skinnies but our results will be transparent with scaled weights shown and all the true information you guys deserve. No smoke and mirrors here.

JJ

 

[dundy]

I think they are all good product. It is a personnel preference, if you want a plug and play or a custom tune. If you want a custom tune ask around and find a good local tuner. I have had vehicle tuned using SCT, Ecutek. My friend is running COBB on his Focus and I think I am going to try that, if I do not like it. I will try something else. There are many options out there.

 

[Tamadrummer88]

Ive never ran a tune on any of my cars (not sure if id run one on my 2015 when i get it) but when i do, id get one from a tuner that has experience with these cars, not a company whos a "Johnny come lately" to the Mustang scene.

Im sure by now everyone knows who that company is. Not trying to start something, but i think its pretty much out there now.

 

[foghat]

Ive never ran a tune on any of my cars (not sure if id run one on my 2015 when i get it) but when i do, id get one from a tuner that has experience with these cars, not a company whos a "Johnny come lately" to the Mustang scene.

Im sure by now everyone knows who that company is. Not trying to start something, but i think its pretty much out there now.

Are you serious? Given that the EB is brand new to the mustang this year, I am not sure why you think it is relevant if the company has not done mustang tunes in the past.

If I were concerned about anything (and not saying that I am), it would be companies who have only tuned NA mustangs/engines in the past now playing with turbo tunes for the first time.

 

[Tamadrummer88]

There is one company in this thread that has been tuning EcoBoost Mustangs for the last 5 years and is very well known in the Mustang/domestic community versus a company that has been working on EcoBoost vehicles for the last couple of years.

Which do you think id go with?

 

[stoli]

Ive never ran a tune on any of my cars (not sure if id run one on my 2015 when i get it) but when i do, id get one from a tuner that has experience with these cars, not a company whos a "Johnny come lately" to the Mustang scene.

Im sure by now everyone knows who that company is. Not trying to start something, but i think its pretty much out there now.

Are you serious? Given that the EB is brand new to the mustang this year, I am not sure why you think it is relevant if the company has not done mustang tunes in the past.

If I were concerned about anything (and not saying that I am), it would be companies who have only tuned NA mustangs/engines in the past now playing with turbo tunes for the first time.

As foghat said, I'd be much, much more comfortable with a company new to Mustangs but with an extensive turbo background than an expert on Mustangs with limited turbo knowledge.

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