Tuning Decisions

[Gungnir888]

Personally, if a large number of my posts were deleted from a thread, I might start taking a less abrasive tact.

The much maligned import tuners tend to provide free datalogging and tune tweaks as part of the off the shelf tune package.

I can't say any of the tuners for the EB have come out and said they support that. Is anyone offering refined tunes based of your data logs as part of the base purchase of the tuning device/license?

Every engine is unique and is going to hit slightly different parameters. I feel more secure knowing that somebody with knowledge I don't have is reviewing a couple logs from my engine and optimizing based on what is actually going on with my car. Throw in a couple alerts for things like knock so I know when there is trouble brewing and I am happy.

By the same token, it is cool to watch people building 2000 and 3000 hp engines, but that is so far from the realm of what I want to do it is irrelevant. A custom build down to specialized bolts is not as pertinent to the average enthusiast as the tune they can live with day to day.

Bottom line, there is a tradeoff between power, reliability and emissions. Something has to be sacrificed. 2000+ hp builds are as relevant to me as the curb weight of the next Bugatti supercar. Give me something that provides enough confidence it won't blow my engine, has some extra power attached and call it a day. Others might want to push that envelope further and take it to the line or beyond. It looks like we have enough tune options that every mentality will be encompassed and you can truly customize based on your level of risk acceptability.

If you really want to take it a step further, maybe some of the forum members will start posting their data logs like happens in the loljdm world and we can start getting some mass subjective analysis on who is and is not doing the right thing. Unfortunately, that might detract from the hyperbolic popular conversation.

Sponsored

 

[EcoSnake]

I'd say it depends on the tuner. I've never tuned on a dyno before...only used datalogs to make adjustments, but from what I understand, dynos don't load the engine like actual driving does. Same goes for drag racing vs mile events, etc.

The best way I've been told is to, load the etune, datalog, street tune, datalog, dynotune. Especially for e85 I've been told is important to dynotune. Something about extra sensors and data needed that the dyno provides.

 

[foghat]

Idk anything about all the other stuff but that last point does kind of bother me with the COBB tuner. I don't want to pay $500 and then on top of that pay someone near me to tune it when I add things on. Whereas with Bama I can just tell them what I have up front and pay 400

Cobb has you covered too with different ots maps for different mods. Bottom line is, no matter who you go with, you are better off getting a custom tune specific to your vehicle. Bama is $100 less, with cobb you get hardware/software that does more for the extra $100.

No attack, just questions.

Per Livernois' webpage here:
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/products/2015%252b-Mustang-2.3-Ecoboost-Tuner.html

"Unlike other tuners on the market, Livernois' MyCalibrator offers true "grow with you" support. We have custom tunes to fit all of our performance upgrade packages, and can even custom modify our standard tunes to better fit your needs."

I'm not sure what all this entails, but it sounds promising...

Reading that and the rest of the paragraph, it really just sounds pretty similar to what cobb offers - different tunes for different mods. Maybe it goes a bit beyond that - in that they will do something custom for your car if they don't have an ots map for your mods, but not clear. I don't really see how they could do much beyond what cobb is offering without data logging capabilities and actually doing custom tunes for that price..

Livernois wants $600 vs. the $500 for the cobb accessport. The accessport seems to be much better in terms of hardware (code reading and clearing, data logging, real time gauge and parameter display).

Pro/dyno tunes are always better than anything you get by mail or email. It's your car, tuning is a area you don't want to take lightly. Know people who have blown their motors with a bad etune and haven't had a working car in a year.

proper etunes (where you log, get a map update, rinse, repeat until dialed in) are deadly good. Real loads, real driving conditions.

 

[COBB Tuning]

Re: 1. Livernois tunes.

They do, it was just an example of ECU reverse engineering and hardware makers versus calibration "only".

Re: 3. I suggest studying higher order forces/vibrations associated w/ horizontally opposed engines...

We've worked with STI engineers in Japan and we only make a pulley for the EJ series motor, no other motors. We understand the engineering data, we are a company full of degreed and experienced engineers. It is well accepted that the EJ series of motors does not have a dampener from the factory and does not require one. I'd recommend contacting a local Subaru engine builder for their opinion if you don't believe ours.

Since you say you are "experts" w/ small turbo engines, why are your dyno numbers on par w/ or lower than what others are offering? Why have we not seen any real world testing of your car to substantiate any claims?

Our OTS maps are designed to work on varying fuel quality across the nation and in various atmospheric conditions. We could make more power if we wanted to for a single dyno pull, but our OTS maps provide consistency in all conditions. A custom tune that can account for your local fuel, weather, and specific car will always make the most power. Finally, all of our OTS gains show 93 octane baseline runs. Be sure other dyno graphs show the same.

Re: 4. When you say 'we'...who exactly do you mean? You provided the software for the team? You did the tuning? I was under the impression that English Racing did the tuning? If they did the tuning, isn't it a little misleading to say 'you' made the car go fast?

Our lead calibrator, Tim Bailey, helped with the final tuning and was at the track for support.

Also, are you sure about that 2000rwhp? 7.80s at 182ish mph doesn't seem right for that power...after a quick search, 1572 seems more reasonable. An extra Mustang GT get thrown in there?

1971WHP: http://instagram.com/p/uenFqqJXnf/ Here is the "kit" they offer: ETS Super 99

Idk anything about all the other stuff but that last point does kind of bother me with the COBB tuner. I don't want to pay $500 and then on top of that pay someone near me to tune it when I add things on. Whereas with Bama I can just tell them what I have up front and pay 400

Some Protuners offer their own free custom mapping if you purchase the AP direct from them, much like BAMA does for SCT devices. Beyond custom dyno tuning, many of our Protuners also offer e-tuning services (record a datalog with the AP, email it to your tuner, they revise the mapping and email you a map back, repeat).

We do a lot of work in house to find the best upgrade path and then to offer maps paired with those upgrades. You don't have to use our OTS maps or follow our upgrade path, but they are there if you want them.

I'd say it depends on the tuner. I've never tuned on a dyno before...only used datalogs to make adjustments, but from what I understand, dynos don't load the engine like actual driving does. Same goes for drag racing vs mile events, etc.

A properly calibrated dyno will simulate load on the road. But that's why a good calibrator drives a car on the road too to verify!

Ian

 

[Bullitt]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, if I were going to go with a tune it would be Cobb. They've been tuning the WRX for over a decade. I have friends that have run their tunes for 100k+ miles with no issues. They're solid. The reason why I've never run one of their tunes is that I was always scared of losing my factory warranty. Although their impressive tune for the EcoBoost is making me seriously consider their Accessport in the spring since I do have so much confidence in their work.

 

[mbreinin]

I tuned my 2007 STi with Cobb when the car had under 1,000 miles. The factory tune was terrible and borderline dangerous in '07 due to new emissions requirements. I put 100k on that tune and it was a solid, daily driven tune. My current Mustang, which I am selling today, is a 2012 Coyote 6 speed. It was tuned by AED at 5,000 miles and has 85,000 now. Many passes at the track, with that tune. Alas, Shaun is not going to tune the EcoBoost right now (or maybe ever), so I am looking for a new tuner. Myt interest is maximum straight line with the EcoBoost. I plan on doing all the bolt-ons and shooting for tens. So, my choice of tuner will be whoever can safely get me there and provide ongoing support for mods. I have access to a Dyno and I am at the track often with my other, much faster, car.

Mike

 

[yonson]

Just to throw my 2 cents in, if I were going to go with a tune it would be Cobb. They've been tuning the WRX for over a decade. I have friends that have run their tunes for 100k+ miles with no issues. They're solid. The reason why I've never run one of their tunes is that I was always scared of losing my factory warranty. Although their impressive tune for the EcoBoost is making me seriously consider their Accessport in the spring since I do have so much confidence in their work.

I have nothing at all against Cobb, they have a great product. I just think it's funny that people discount Livernois because they haven't heard of them, I'm sure the same can be said about Cobb especially in the Domestic market, since all they cover are turbocharged applications...

Livernois has been doing calibrations for Ford/GM/Dodge etc... vehicles since the '90's when there were only a handful of people in the world that even had access to the tools capable of doing so...

 

[15EBStang]

Not to mention, Dan, the owner of Livernois was running a turbo on his SBF Mustang setting and breaking his own records in NMRA and Fun Ford when everyone else was running blowers.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Quote:
by Herr_Poopschitz
Since you say you are "experts" w/ small turbo engines, why are your dyno numbers on par w/ or lower than what others are offering? Why have we not seen any real world testing of your car to substantiate any claims?

by Ian
Our OTS maps are designed to work on varying fuel quality across the nation and in various atmospheric conditions. We could make more power if we wanted to for a single dyno pull, but our OTS maps provide consistency in all conditions. A custom tune that can account for your local fuel, weather, and specific car will always make the most power. Finally, all of our OTS gains show 93 octane baseline runs. Be sure other dyno graphs show the same.

Right. I'm confused, are you implying that other tuners are not concerned about fuel and atmo conditions as well? I figured that was a given. I think it's safe to say based on customer experiences that all the tuners on this forum know what they're doing when it comes to reliability concerns. Since this is the case, however, this still means that your final #'s are lower than those of a few others. Just looking for an explanation as to why, since your expertise should give you a clear advantage.

Also, again, why have we not seen any real world testing of the car to substantiate any of your claims? This would put to rest any question of dyno results.

We've worked with STI engineers in Japan and we only make a pulley for the EJ series motor, no other motors. We understand the engineering data, we are a company full of degreed and experienced engineers. It is well accepted that the EJ series of motors does not have a dampener from the factory and does not require one. I'd recommend contacting a local Subaru engine builder for their opinion if you don't believe ours.

You shouldn't assume I haven't.

If you work w/ STi engineers and have degreed (mechanical?) engineers employed, it should be easy to provide the requested technical evidence. The generic letter from customer service is not adequate. I've offered to explain it, and can do it from both a stress (since this is what I specialize in) or manufacturing standpoint, but since you're confident in having a definitive answer, please share. I enjoy learning.

Also, if you do a quick search on the net, no position is 'well accepted'.

1971WHP: http://instagram.com/p/uenFqqJXnf/ Here is the "kit" they offer: ETS Super 99

Something doesn't seem right...does the car weigh 4500 lbs?

 

[Darkrune]

Right. I'm confused, are you implying that other tuners are not concerned about fuel and atmo conditions as well? I figured that was a given. I think it's safe to say based on customer experiences that all the tuners on this forum know what they're doing when it comes to reliability concerns. Since this is the case, however, this still means that your final #'s are lower than those of a few others. Just looking for an explanation as to why, since your expertise should give you a clear advantage.

Also, again, why have we not seen any real world testing of the car to substantiate any of your claims? This would put to rest any question of dyno results.



You shouldn't assume I haven't.

If you work w/ STi engineers and have degreed (mechanical?) engineers employed, it should be easy to provide the requested technical evidence. The generic letter from customer service is not adequate. I've offered to explain it, and can do it from both a stress (since this is what I specialize in) or manufacturing standpoint, but since you're confident in having a definitive answer, please share. I enjoy learning.

Also, if you do a quick search on the net, no position is 'well accepted'.

Something doesn't seem right...does the car weigh 4500 lbs?

The bottom line is that they need to make tunes for all fuel types in all regions of the world that are reliable, but still fun to drive. Like they said, their hardware is awesome and you don't have to use OTS, but they are the easy fix options for power. Get off their case bro, and go do your own research on their company.

 

[dragonacc]

Herr_Poopschitz - Can you please take your complaints somewhere else? Livernois and Cobb are both reputable tuners. I think we all understand at this point that you don't like Cobb.

 

[Gungnir888]

Right. I'm confused, are you implying that other tuners are not concerned about fuel and atmo conditions as well? I figured that was a given. I think it's safe to say based on customer experiences that all the tuners on this forum know what they're doing when it comes to reliability concerns. Since this is the case, however, this still means that your final #'s are lower than those of a few others. Just looking for an explanation as to why, since your expertise should give you a clear advantage.

Also, again, why have we not seen any real world testing of the car to substantiate any of your claims? This would put to rest any question of dyno results.



You shouldn't assume I haven't.

If you work w/ STi engineers and have degreed (mechanical?) engineers employed, it should be easy to provide the requested technical evidence. The generic letter from customer service is not adequate. I've offered to explain it, and can do it from both a stress (since this is what I specialize in) or manufacturing standpoint, but since you're confident in having a definitive answer, please share. I enjoy learning.

Also, if you do a quick search on the net, no position is 'well accepted'.

Something doesn't seem right...does the car weigh 4500 lbs?

Come on, man. You have proven in most threads you have some idea of what you are talking about, but it might be easier to convince other people of that if you weren't so abrasive.

If you really want to play the impartial consumer who is swayed by real world data, why not start asking the tuners to post up some data logs? That is the information that is going to let people actually review what parameters are being tweaked and determine if they are willing to accept the risk those changes mean.

If you agree there is no consensus on idler pulleys, why convict somebody for producing them? Some people are willing to accept the risk in exchange for their money and a couple of extra hp. You haven't exactly provided evidence that harmonic dampening is critical for the engine in question. Even outside of that, what impact does the nature of various boxer engines have on the EB?

 

[cosmo]

Herr, give it up. Cobb isn't providing any data but at least they have a letter from Subaru. You probably have some math, which doesn't cover the entirety of the complexity of different ordered responses when dealing with crankshaft dampers for the Subaru h4 engine as there are many contributing factors. The only ways to definitely show the effects is either instrumented tests and results, or actual proven accounts of engine destruction because of a part that Cobb sells. Neither of which I can find. I can only find "studies" done by "experts" but anyone who is an actual engineer can tell you that that's bullshit, show me he actual data. Cobb can sell whatever they want. It's up to the customer to make an educated purchase. It also doesn't directly affect us ecoboost buyers at all right now.

It's like they murdered your family and you're out for revenge and to smear their name.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Come on, man. You have proven in most threads you have some idea of what you are talking about, but it might be easier to convince other people of that if you weren't so abrasive.

If you really want to play the impartial consumer who is swayed by real world data, why not start asking the tuners to post up some data logs? That is the information that is going to let people actually review what parameters are being tweaked and determine if they are willing to accept the risk those changes mean.

If you agree there is no consensus on idler pulleys, why convict somebody for producing them? Some people are willing to accept the risk in exchange for their money and a couple of extra hp. You haven't exactly provided evidence that harmonic dampening is critical for the engine in question. Even outside of that, what impact does the nature of various boxer engines have on the EB?

I'm just asking questions, guys. I'm honestly trying not to come across as abrasive, and I'm sorry if I do so. In all honesty, most people think I'm an ass until they get to know me. I don't have a problem w/ that, so I think others shouldn't either. I'm also not questioning for other people. I like the AP for the most part, and will consider it if my questions are answered in a way I find reasonable, like anyone. I may just ask more or different questions.

I have asked for some kind of quantitative performance results of the car. All the tuners here have good reputations and are not going to sell us something that melts a piston. As for datalogs, I also don't think they'd be willing to give out information to other tuners willy-nilly, would they?

I agree that there is no consensus on the net regarding not something as simple as an idler pulley, but a harmonic damper on the crank. This came up because I questioned the legitimacy of a company that sold parts w/ little understanding of how they effect an engine, and Ian defended selling them by saying they had plenty of proof and testing validating their sale. I'm simply asking for that proof. Since there is such a lack of consensus, such proof could easily put an end to the debate. I'm open to being wrong, and love to learn. As for why I have yet to provide anything, I would rather get into what will no doubt be a long-winded highly technical explanation via PM, as I stated in a previous post, since, like you say, this forum is about the EB. I do think the overall issue is one of concern when trying to decide what company to put one's trust into.

Make sense?

 

[foghat]

Right. I'm confused, are you implying that other tuners are not concerned about fuel and atmo conditions as well? I figured that was a given. I think it's safe to say based on customer experiences that all the tuners on this forum know what they're doing when it comes to reliability concerns. Since this is the case, however, this still means that your final #'s are lower than those of a few others. Just looking for an explanation as to why, since your expertise should give you a clear advantage.

Also, again, why have we not seen any real world testing of the car to substantiate any of your claims? This would put to rest any question of dyno results.

Again, one of the reasons is likely because they use a mustang dyno vs. dynojet that everyone else is using.

While I agree I'd like to see them hit the track and post some numbers, that will happen soon enough with customer cars.

Also, Cobb has never claimed (I don't think) their expertise is more so than any of the other tuners here.

If you are so certain cobb is wrong in their stance, why not take a bit of time and find all the complaints out there of damaged engines using Cobb's pully or dampener or whatever the part in question is?

Were you there calling Livernois out when they were claiming x hp gains over stock when their stock run was using 87 and tuned run was using 93?

Sponsored