Consolidated My Thoughts On The 2018 Mustang

[airfuel]

V8 or no mustang for me.

Late mid life crisis car so it needs to sound the part.

Small sports car would fit the bill for fun.
N/A 4 banger with stick on the back roads is fun.

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[ApollosWar89]

Would you entertain having the new 3.0 6 cylinder Powerstroke coming out in the Mustang? I wouldn't mind. There's a guy that already makes Cummins Chargers and Dirtymax Camaros.

People have been cramming engines into different cars since racing began. Its not being creative.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Would you entertain having the new 3.0 6 cylinder Powerstroke coming out in the Mustang? I wouldn't mind. There's a guy that already makes Cummins Chargers and Dirtymax Camaros.

Doubt it.

Videos of those Chargers and Camaros display exactly the things I hate about diesel trucks (the smoke, the clatter, and the AT), and wouldn't want in a car (potentially more torque down low than the car can use and a redline lower than that for the 1-bbl carb'ed inline sixxes of the 1950's and 1960's).


I'm really a sports car/sports racer kind of guy who wants the kind of power delivery and rpm capability associated with a good NA spark-ignition engine. Even in relaxed street driving where I'm not using anywhere near all of either power or rpms, it still fits the way I drive better than anything else.


Norm

 

[c-rizzle]

Even more support in the argument that the ecoboost engine is taking over ALL Ford models. 75% of new F150 truck sales are now ecoboost motors or the NA v6. More horsepower, more torque, better fuel efficiency. Win win win. That high output ecoboost v6 motor is no joke. 450 hp, 510 torque.

No reason to have the v8 in the F-150 now. They will slowly start to phase it out. Mustang might be next.

F150 lost 700 lbs with the new bodies. They can go to "lightweight" smaller engines. True heavy duty performance you really need big displacement (lower hp per liter) for reliability. The higher the hp per liter, with more weight it puts more stress on the engine and decreases long term durability. Notice the big trucks (F250's, 2500s, etc.) come with 6.0L++ engines with relatively lower hp/liter ratings.

If they did the same aluminum lightweightening of the Mustang I would take a 400+hp 3.5L Ecoboost. On a Mustang they should be able to lose about 300 lbs. So more like 3,400 lbs, instead of 3,700lbs.

 

[Ecoboosted]

For me, that V8 growl is all important......sure you can get a growl with a V12 or even a V6, but that V8 growl is unique. Sure, power and performance is important, but I'd take a 400hp V8 over a 500hp V6

I totally agree. Just like to cruise and hear that beautiful 5.0.

 

[w3rkn]

V8 or no mustang for me.

Late mid life crisis car so it needs to sound the part.

Small sports car would fit the bill for fun.
N/A 4 banger with stick on the back roads is fun.

What if it there was a v6 twin turbo, & had 480 ft-lbs of torque..

 

[Spartan]

What if it there was a v6 twin turbo, & had 480 ft-lbs of torque..

If the 2020 had a v6 twin turbo and was aluminum why wouldn't you go with that. I mean look at Audi and their S/RS series cars that have gone from V8s down to V6's but yet are lighter/faster. You see a select few complaining but the rest/reviews/mags all like the engines/transmissions/etc.

Obviously the sound/ground is great and can't compare...

 

[BmacIL]

F150 lost 700 lbs with the new bodies. They can go to "lightweight" smaller engines. True heavy duty performance you really need big displacement (lower hp per liter) for reliability. The higher the hp per liter, with more weight it puts more stress on the engine and decreases long term durability. Notice the big trucks (F250's, 2500s, etc.) come with 6.0L++ engines with relatively lower hp/liter ratings.

If they did the same aluminum lightweightening of the Mustang I would take a 400+hp 3.5L Ecoboost. On a Mustang they should be able to lose about 300 lbs. So more like 3,400 lbs, instead of 3,700lbs.

On the engine side though, the 3.5L EB in the F-150 has no significant difference in weight to the 5.0L, once you add all the charge piping, intercooler, etc., in addition to the turbos.

The V8 is nicer to tow with in the F-150, from a power delivery perspective, not pure brute force, and in most people's hands, gets better fuel economy while towing.

 

[Norm Peterson]

If the 2020 had a v6 twin turbo and was aluminum why wouldn't you go with that. I mean look at Audi and their S/RS series cars that have gone from V8s down to V6's but yet are lighter/faster. You see a select few complaining but the rest/reviews/mags all like the engines/transmissions/etc.

Seems that few people look for differences in power delivery, let alone understand the range of possible preferences. Probably because this concept is not something easily quantifiable with numbers.

The majority (including the authors of magazine and other reviews) either don't get this themselves, or they do and give up when it comes down to explaining it, and end up relying on the far more easily comprehended brute force numbers.


Norm

 

[w3rkn]

The 2.7 liter v6 EB can be stroked to 2.9 liters w/twin-dual scrolls on each bank...

Check out the tunes already out there for the old 2.7 EB. Now imagine what can be done on the "dual injection" (DFI+Port) that the new 2.7 v6 EB is getting. (Then think about a turbo stang like the M4)

 

[RocketGuy3]

It’s not far-fetched at all when you consider I wasn’t talking about overall Ford sales, but rather mustang sales. The problem with ditching the V8 for an ecoboost is that you would lose more than you would gain.



If you think it’s going to have 470 hp, you need to lay down the crack pipe….sorry, not going to happen. I think 455hp is the golden number here.

Everything else you mentioned cost money. That active exhaust is going to cost extra, as is the digital cluster and mag suspension. The performance pack is no longer going to be a budget oriented setup….think more along the lines of a $6k upgrade (think 1le). MSRP on the MY18 you are looking at is going to be north of $46k….and in the end, you’ll be no faster than a tuned/Cai 15-17.

So you’ll be taking a $10k hit on your 2015 and be spending $20k to get a MY18 with all of the options you listed. Is an active exhaust and Mag suspension really worth that? To each their own, but to me….that sounds crazy.

I have to question your use of the word "everything". You didn't even come close to addressing every advantage I mentioned. Active exhaust, higher redline with a quicker-revving engine, improved fuel economy, improved clutch, Android auto, LED headlamps. All of these things will be standard (except the exhaust? not sure on that one).

And 470 hp seems well within reason to me. Between DI, the displacement increase, and the 7-8% bump in engine RPM, there is every reason to believe this thing will get a significant power bump. They want to 1-up the Camaro's output, too. This is a constant back-and-forth, and it's Ford's turn.

I could be wrong, of course, in which case the 2018+ becomes a bit less appealing, but I doubt it.

I also don't know where you read that the PP was going to cost $6K... maybe if you get it with active exhaust and magneride. But yes, I understand many of those things will cost extra, and I'm fine with that, depending on price. At least I have the option, unlike in 2015-17.

And that's kind of a polite way of saying just because some people think that all change is good for them that (by definition) it must be good for everybody. And that we are all supposed to start thinking that way.

Too bad today's insistence on technology as the solution to everything ignores the human element.

I understand your concern and feel some of it myself, but I'm not sure what the solution is. Do we just try to fight technological progress out of fear of what it will bring? I.e., do we all become the unibomber? Where do we draw the line?

And if we don't figure out a way to draw a line (and I don't see how we can), then the AI revolution is inevitable. I'm not sure what happens to the human element at that point...

Please don't use the word "ignorant" until you educate yourself on the electoral college. There's a reason it exists, and it did it's job perfectly.

Remember, you don't know what you don't know. There's a whole world of knowledge out there beyond H.S. and college, and your mom's basement. A lot more you need to study and understand.

You've been indoctrinated so far in your life. If you can take that as a starting point, the rest of your life will be a lot easier.

Yeah, the reason it exists was to give southern states a way to count their slave population towards their federal representation.

The existence of the electoral college is objectively, unequivocally stupid. That has always been true, but it's more true than ever today. Our founders never anticipated so much of the population being concentrated into major metropolitan areas the way they are today. Nor did they anticipate the existence of the internet, social media, and pop culture making information travel so fluidly, uniformly, and quickly across the globe, let alone the country. One of their [supposed] fears, for example, was one state's media being isolated from another state's, and therefore giving both states a biased position in an election. This is almost a completely obsolete concern now. In fact, the only place where isolation is still any concern (rural America) is the place that is now given over-weighted voting power as a result of this bullshit system...

The EC and disproportionate congressional representation are a major part of what is holding this country back... There's a very specific section of the population that is overrepresented by the electoral college and arbitrary state boundaries, and it is not one that has a good grasp on the future.

This isn't about state v state. It's about city v rural.

 

[millhouse]

I have to question your use of the word "everything". You didn't even come close to addressing every advantage I mentioned. Active exhaust, higher redline with a quicker-revving engine, improved fuel economy, improved clutch, Android auto, LED headlamps. All of these things will be standard (except the exhaust? not sure on that one).

Out of all of the things you mentioned, none are an advantage.
Active exhaust: You can have it. It's heavier, more junk to rattle, and more to go wrong. Ford should take notes on the sound of the Corsa sport.

Higher Redline: This on it's own is not an advantage

Quicker-revving engine: I don't know where this is mentioned anywhere...and again, even if true it's not an advantage (to me).

Improved fuel economy: The only advantage you've listed

Improved Clutch: My stock clutch works fantastic.

Android Auto: Iphone anyone?

LED headlamps: Again, no advantage here. Quite often, the HID counterparts are often brighter than the comparable LEDs.

And...everything you mentioned will cost more money. How much, we've yet to find out. I expect base GT prices to be quite a bit closer to the 1SS camaro.

And 470 hp seems well within reason to me. Between DI, the displacement increase, and the 7-8% bump in engine RPM, there is every reason to believe this thing will get a significant power bump. They want to 1-up the Camaro's output, too. This is a constant back-and-forth, and it's Ford's turn.

10hp from the higher compression and DI setup on the F150. You think you're getting an extra 25hp from a 500rpm bump? I personally don't think so.

The mustang already outsells the camaro without more horsepower. The don't need to 1-up the camaro's output. I expect them to get close...and to rely on the 10 speed and suspension upgrades to drop the 1/4 mile et's nicely. Remember, just eliminating wheel hop and fords clutch saving tune is worth a couple 10ths ET.

I also don't know where you read that the PP was going to cost $6K... maybe if you get it with active exhaust and magneride. But yes, I understand many of those things will cost extra, and I'm fine with that, depending on price. At least I have the option, unlike in 2015-17.

The PP has been increasing in price every year. The question is, will you be able to get it without magneride and active exhaust?

 

[RocketGuy3]

Out of all of the things you mentioned, none are an advantage.
Active exhaust: You can have it. It's heavier, more junk to rattle, and more to go wrong. Ford should take notes on the sound of the Corsa sport.

Higher Redline: This on it's own is not an advantage

Quicker-revving engine: I don't know where this is mentioned anywhere...and again, even if true it's not an advantage (to me).

Improved fuel economy: The only advantage you've listed

Improved Clutch: My stock clutch works fantastic.

Android Auto: Iphone anyone?

LED headlamps: Again, no advantage here. Quite often, the HID counterparts are often brighter than the comparable LEDs.

And...everything you mentioned will cost more money. How much, we've yet to find out. I expect base GT prices to be quite a bit closer to the 1SS camaro.



10hp from the higher compression and DI setup on the F150. You think you're getting an extra 25hp from a 500rpm bump? I personally don't think so.

The mustang already outsells the camaro without more horsepower. The don't need to 1-up the camaro's output. I expect them to get close...and to rely on the 10 speed and suspension upgrades to drop the 1/4 mile et's nicely. Remember, just eliminating wheel hop and fords clutch saving tune is worth a couple 10ths ET.



The PP has been increasing in price every year. The question is, will you be able to get it without magneride and active exhaust?

- Higher revving is an advantage in part because it means more power when all else is equal, but also because it means better sound. BTW, remember what the Ford Power Pack 3 does with 7500 RPM...? And that's without DI and increased displacement...
- Faster revving was mentioned in Ford's official press release, IIRC. I know I read it in some kind of official documentation. Probably as a result of feedback about how difficult it is to heel-toe in the Coyote.
- Good for you, I hate the stock clutch.
- What about the iphone? You want me to buy a new [worse] phone? Is this actually your argument for why Android Auto isn't a nice feature for those with Android phones? Seriously?
- It's not just about brightness. It's about aesthetic appeal, power draw, and bulb life.
- Lulz @ "extra weight" with the active exhaust. Any differences there will be negligible and more than made up for by the improved chassis/suspension and the extra power. And I'll take my chances with potential rattling. This is not some crazy new tech. It's relatively simple and heavily battle tested by now, including in the GT350.
- Based on the order guide that was just released, PP does not come with magneride or active exhaust... though if it did, that'd probably be fine by me since I probably want both, anyways.
- And again, on top of all that, there's just the fact that you just get a shiny, brand new car to play with. Complete with fresh, unworn parts and a 3-year factory warranty.

In terms of sales, the Camaro v Mustang numbers have gotten very close with the release of the 6th gen Camaro, besides which, simply leading in sales is never enough. Until they have 100% marketshare, everybody always wants more.

I really don't know why this is so hard to understand... Honestly, based on all the myriad arguments I've seen in this thread, you seem completely unwilling to admit that you *might* be wrong about anything, or even just that some people *might* want different things than you want, and that that's ok.

I understand why a 2018 may not be worth it to some (even most) people with a 2015-17, but I also definitely see the value in the car as someone who appreciates new tech and stock performance.

 

[millhouse]

- Higher revving is an advantage in part because it means more power when all else is equal, but also because it means better sound. BTW, remember what the Ford Power Pack 3 does with 7500 RPM...? And that's without DI and increased displacement...

You didn't mention power in regards to RPM, hence the reason for my wording. ;)

Also, Ford power pack 3 uses a gt350 intake and larger throttle body. Unless you have any information out there in regards to the MY18 intake, this comparison is bunk.

- Faster revving was mentioned in Ford's official press release, IIRC. I know I read it in some kind of official documentation. Probably as a result of feedback about how difficult it is to heel-toe in the Coyote.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me. I never was keen on using lightweight flywheels on my windsor engines. The only advantage here is for those that will be running on a road course.

- What about the iphone? You want me to buy a new [worse] phone? Is this actually your argument for why Android Auto isn't a nice feature for those with Android phones? Seriously?

This most certainly isn't a reason most would consider to upgrade a vehicle. Most people aren't making $40k decisions based on what $400 phone they own.

- It's not just about brightness. It's about aesthetic appeal, power draw, and bulb life.

I think the advantage you're stating here is overblown. I'll concede an advantage...but again, this isn't akin to the difference between halogen and HID. I most certainly wouldn't put this in the must have upgrade category.

- Lulz @ "extra weight" with the active exhaust. Any differences there will be negligible and more than made up for by the improved chassis/suspension and the extra power. And I'll take my chances with potential rattling. This is not some crazy new tech. It's relatively simple and heavily battle tested by now, including in the GT350.

I haven't seen anywhere about the improved chassis/suspension being lighter. If anything else, I would expect revised/improved bracing to add weight. These are the same chassis after-all.

As for the exhaust, you take the chance...I'll enjoy the pure sex sounds and lighter weight of my Corsa Sport. Let me know when those GT350s reach 75k miles on those exhausts (in 30 years).

- Based on the order guide that was just released, PP does not come with magneride or active exhaust... though if it did, that'd probably be fine by me since I probably want both, anyways.

Fair enough.

Keep in mind, the 2015 performance pack was $2495.
The 2017 is an additional $2995.
I would expect with the better suspension, forged wheels and Michelin PS4 for this to go up another $1000 (not including magneride).

In terms of sales, the Camaro v Mustang numbers have gotten very close with the release of the 6th gen Camaro, besides which, simply leading in sales is never enough. Until they have 100% marketshare, everybody always wants more.

Numbers have gotten close because the mustang is at the end of the 3rd year. In the first two years, the mustang KILLED IT in sales compared to camaros first two. Even now, the camaro is at dangerously low sales levels at what should be a prime time.

Honestly, based on everything I'm seeing in this thread, you seem completely unwilling to admit that you *might* be wrong about anything, or even just that some people *might* want different things than you want, and that that's ok.

Curious, why would I "admit" that I "*might*" be wrong when nothing has been revealed to signify I will be?

I've said it all along, the MY18 isn't being targeted towards current S550 owners. It's trying to keep sales going by luring in customers who were on the fence. If they wanted to bring in existing customers, they would have released killer HP numbers that would allow existing owners to start selling. The longer they wait, the more I think this HP bump is going to be minimal.

I understand why a 2018 may not be worth it to some (even most) people with a 2015-17, but I also definitely see the value in the car as someone who appreciates new tech and stock performance.

New tech is fine and dandy, but for the MY18 prices are going to reflect it...meaning I fully expect a bump towards camaro pricing. For S550 owners reaching the end of their factory warranty, It's far more economical to upgrade their current cars.

 

[Drakoni]

I have a 2015 GT PP, the only way I would consider getting a new mustang is if they fundamentally change the game with the car. For example, in 2020 if the mustang went to an aluminum body and the car was 300 lb lighter. That would be something to talk about and consider.

Jazzing up the same chassis with some extra HP, different looks, and some new tech would never make me consider the massive loss of money required to get them. Besides my 15 with my long tubes, gt350 manifold, and e85 will shit all over an 18.

Another thing to think about is the coyote is going from MAF to Air Density, something that will take the aftermarket some time to figure out. Don’t expect to buy an 18 and have good tunes and engine mods ready any time soon.

If you have a 15 - 17 keep it (IMO). If not then the 18 would be a good choice as long as you can wait for aftermaket to catch up (assuming moding the car is your thing).

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