Consolidated My Thoughts On The 2018 Mustang

[Norm Peterson]

I have to question your use of the word "everything". You didn't even come close to addressing every advantage I mentioned. Active exhaust, higher redline with a quicker-revving engine, improved fuel economy, improved clutch, Android auto, LED headlamps. All of these things will be standard (except the exhaust? not sure on that one).

I'll stipulate to the higher redline, quicker revving, and - depending on what the improvements were - the clutch. It's a stretch to call active exhaust an advantage unless it can be set to default to 'quiet mode' when starting and fully user-controllable (as in, individually switchable as opposed to being tied into whatever drive mode) otherwise.

Personally, I think cars should be your sanctuary away from your phone and the people who expect you to be instantly available 24-7, which makes whatever Android auto is a non-starter. And that headlighting should be chosen on illumination performance alone (not on the specific technology used, IOW technology-neutral).

I understand your concern and feel some of it myself, but I'm not sure what the solution is. Do we just try to fight technological progress out of fear of what it will bring?

Perhaps the fight should be less about technological progress per se than about peoples' growing expectation that there need be no end to what technology should be doing for them.

And if we don't figure out a way to draw a line (and I don't see how we can), then the AI revolution is inevitable. I'm not sure what happens to the human element at that point...

Not sure either. But maybe if driving itself went back to being an earned privilege instead of the rubber-stamped entitlement that it has effectively become . . .


Norm

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[Norm Peterson]

Perhaps the fight should be less about technological progress per se than about peoples' growing expectation that there need be no end to what technology should be doing for them.

Just to expand on this point a little, the business of actually driving (regardless of how much or little performance-oriented) is part car, part driver, and part road/venue. Let's side-step that last piece of the pie as being matters of individual preference and/or location, and ignore feature content that is not directly involved with physically operating the car for its function as a device to transport you "at speed".

That leaves 'part car' and 'part driver', and the direction that many of the technologies are taking essentially throws the driver's part in all this under the bus in the name of clinical solutions on the car side. Porsche was forced to do some reconsidering for their 911 GT3, so there's precedent for resisting this.

Personally, I don't even see a bragging rights kind of appeal in technologies that in some ultimate guise would permit a new and unskilled driver to match results obtained by far better and more experienced drivers in any given competition or comparison. Where's the satisfaction in knowing you can drive your car to 11-flat in the quarter mile or under 1:25 at Willow Springs if its technology virtually guarantees that just about anybody else could be pointed to the same tracks in it and come back having matched your times?


Norm

 

[c-rizzle]

The Raptor doesn't have the history/legacy that the mustang does. People buy a mustang for it's V8 period. Ford knows that the mustang would lose massive sales <with the older well-lined-pocket crowd> without a V8 in the lineup.

Fixed.

Yes. Baby boomers and generally older than 40 crowd. But the younger you go, the more you have the millenial crowd that grew up with more ricer influences, than muscle car influences. Hence the WRX, STI, Civic... even Focus RS, etc. The ecoboost is selling well with the "younger generations" for 2 reasons: 1. they care less about having a V8 and 2. insurance is cheaper than a "big V8" + young driver.

The past couple of years were a test with the V6 and Ecoboost side by side. If people truly rejected smaller engines, they'd have kept the V6 around longer. But sales and market research showed they could ditch the V6 and not hurt sales.

 

[wireeater]

All I want to see when everything is said an done is a 2017 PP with pilot sport 4s tires have a head to head with a 2018 PP and see where they stand in terms of performance and handling. If the 2018 is a +1 second or quicker I'd say the changes were significant and worth it.

 

[millhouse]

Fixed.

Yes. Baby boomers and generally older than 40 crowd. But the younger you go, the more you have the millenial crowd that grew up with more ricer influences, than muscle car influences. Hence the WRX, STI, Civic... even Focus RS, etc. The ecoboost is selling well with the "younger generations" for 2 reasons: 1. they care less about having a V8 and 2. insurance is cheaper than a "big V8" + young driver.

The past couple of years were a test with the V6 and Ecoboost side by side. If people truly rejected smaller engines, they'd have kept the V6 around longer. But sales and market research showed they could ditch the V6 and not hurt sales.

I've got news for you, the millenial crowd aren't the demographic of the mustang. The millenial crowd are typically interested in economic transportation that gets you from point A to point B without producing any emissions.

The ecoboost is selling with the younger generations because it costs a hell of a lot less than the V8 variant, plain and simple. This is the case now, and was the case 10, 20, 30 years ago.

And for the record, while the mustang was first introduced with a v6...people never desired or purchased the mustang because it had one.

 

[5pointOh]

I've got news for you, the millenial crowd aren't the demographic of the mustang. The millenial crowd are typically interested in economic transportation that gets you from point A to point B without producing any emissions.

The ecoboost is selling with the younger generations because it costs a hell of a lot less than the V8 variant, plain and simple. This is the case now, and was the case 10, 20, 30 years ago.

And for the record, while the mustang was first introduced with a v6...people never desired or purchased the mustang because it had one.

I-6

 

[millhouse]

I-6

Indeed.

 

[c-rizzle]

I've got news for you, the millenial crowd aren't the demographic of the mustang. The millenial crowd are typically interested in economic transportation that gets you from point A to point B without producing any emissions.

The ecoboost is selling with the younger generations because it costs a hell of a lot less than the V8 variant, plain and simple. This is the case now, and was the case 10, 20, 30 years ago.

And for the record, while the mustang was first introduced with a v6...people never desired or purchased the mustang because it had one.

Times are a changing:
1. Export wasn't a traditional customer either and now is. Ecoboost cars cost WAY less overseas with all the BS regulations / gas guzzler taxes.
2. Look at the age survey in this forum. Granted maybe a forum is skewed a little b/c younger people are more likely to use one. But the overwhelming age is young.

 

[Regs]

All I want to see when everything is said an done is a 2017 PP with pilot sport 4s tires have a head to head with a 2018 PP and see where they stand in terms of performance and handling. If the 2018 is a +1 second or quicker I'd say the changes were significant and worth it.

There is no way that a mid-refresh GT is going to trap above 120 mph or do a full second less on the 1/4 mile. Current GT's do 12.9 @ 110 stock in good conditions. So unless you got ferry dust at home... You're competing with current Shelby's at that speed.

 

[Kevin08]

I've got news for you, the millenial crowd aren't the demographic of the mustang. The millenial crowd are typically interested in economic transportation that gets you from point A to point B without producing any emissions.

Maybe not when it was a live axle with a truck interior, poor overall abilities and terrible ergonomics. Not to mention a complete lack of technology. It's a pretty well rounded car now and definitely appeals to younger people. Ford is not using a single baby boomer or even Gen Xers for that matter in any of their marketing shots for the refresh Mustang. The times they are a changin'.

To be honest, most of the V6s in this area are owned by old guys. They're probably like "this V6 has more horse power than my 68 fastback did!" so that's all they care about and buy the V6 because it's bare bones and friendlier to drive than the GT.

 

[wireeater]

There is no way that a mid-refresh GT is going to trap above 120 mph or do a full second less on the 1/4 mile. Not unless you got ferry dust at home. You're competing with current Shelby's at that speed.

Where did you see my post mention 1/4? Performance and handling certainly isn't bench marked on a 1/4 track lol. Nor would I be using a PP GT. And with all the talk about suspension, transmission and power enhancements, 1 second shouldn't be hard on a track compared to the SLOPPY, obsolete, dated 2015-2017.

 

[millhouse]

Times are a changing:
1. Export wasn't a traditional customer either and now is. Ecoboost cars cost WAY less overseas with all the BS regulations / gas guzzler taxes.
2. Look at the age survey in this forum. Granted maybe a forum is skewed a little b/c younger people are more likely to use one. But the overwhelming age is young.

You do realize that a majority of sales overseas are of the V8 variety don't you? They said to hell with the 4cyl, they like their mustangs how they are supposed to be.

Maybe not when it was a live axle with a truck interior, poor overall abilities and terrible ergonomics. Not to mention a complete lack of technology. It's a pretty well rounded car now and definitely appeals to younger people. Ford is not using a single baby boomer or even Gen Xers for that matter in any of their marketing shots for the refresh Mustang. The times they are a changin'.

To be honest, most of the V6s in this area are owned by old guys. They're probably like "this V6 has more horse power than my 68 fastback did!" so that's all they care about and buy the V6 because it's bare bones and friendlier to drive than the GT.

My point was, millennials are not the target audience for the mustang. The general demographic is pretty clear, if they could get away without owning a car, they would (and they do). Horsepower and performance isn't what they want. They want cheap transportation that gets good fuel economy and doesn't hurt the environment. This has nothing to do with suspension and styling upgrades.

 

[Kevin08]

My point was, millennials are not the target audience for the mustang. The general demographic is pretty clear, if they could get away without owning a car, they would (and they do). Horsepower and performance isn't what they want. They want cheap transportation that gets good fuel economy and doesn't hurt the environment. This has nothing to do with suspension and styling upgrades.

Well, no. Stereotypical flavor of the month millennials (tiny home loving, wine and craft beer drinking, nomadic-life style wannabe) would not. Professional, career-driven millennials with buying power, however (which are Ford's target audience as apparent from their marketing materials) are still budget-minded but are certainly willing to pay more for a certain type of object to hit whatever desired/perceived quality of life they want. Would a Mustang with a truck interior, shit ride comfort, shit gas mileage, no technology to speak of check those boxes? Not likely. But bring the Mustang up to speed with technology standards and creature comforts that were otherwise available across the board, and suddenly start positioning it towards cars such as the M2 instead of the Camaro...hey we're slowly moving out of that trailer park muscle car domain stigma and now into refined sports coupe domain. It's a totally new, totally different car than it was just 4 years ago. That's huge, and the S550 is definitely has the 'not your father's Mustang' appeal, so yeah...millennials love it. Obviously, it won't appeal to those whose "Must haves" include 30MPG city, or enough space to haul themselves, their 3 dogs, their YOLO board, and their supply of hammocks. But it has a lot of "nice to haves" and definitely a lot of "want to haves" that most young people resonate with. It's not going to compete with the likes of Subaru, but for millennials who want a very solid, balanced RWD coupe, it's probably the top dog.

I would be very, very interested to see a breakdown of Mustang sales by trim level and MSRP to which age groups are predominantly buying what.

 

[Norm Peterson]

But bring the Mustang up to speed with technology standards and creature comforts that were otherwise available across the board, and suddenly start positioning it towards cars such as the M2 instead of the Camaro...hey we're slowly moving out of that trailer park muscle car domain stigma and now into refined sports coupe domain. It's a totally new, totally different car than it was just 4 years ago. That's huge, and the S550 is definitely has the 'not your father's Mustang' appeal, so yeah...millennials love it.

Let me suggest that millenials haven't yet acquired the wisdom to understand that refinement can be taken too far, even to where the car loses its character. By way of example, BMW has already lost a good bit of what it once was - even their slogan somehow having morphed from "Ultimate Driving Machine" into the much softer-image "Designed For Driving Pleasure".


Norm

 

[RocketGuy3]

<snipped>

I don't feel like continuing this argument at the bullet point level since it's clearly not going to go anywhere, but I will just say this:

Obviously some of those advantages (such as Android Auto or LED headlights) are fairly trivial on their own. In fact, probably not a single one of the advantages I listed is enough to convince me to buy the new Mustang if it was the only difference there was... But when you put them all together, there is an awful lot of appeal to me. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, too. You can try to break it down and minimize the value of each change as much as you want, but we clearly just aren't coming from the same place here. (Also, I never said the chassis would be lighter)

I get why the car doesn't appeal to you, but it certainly at least intrigues me right now for reasons I have to assume you just can't/won't understand at this point. I'm not saying I'm definitely going to upgrade, but pending more information, it sounds awfully tempting right now. And if I do upgrade, feel free to continue to enjoy your S550 and laugh at me while I waste my money.

I'll stipulate to the higher redline, quicker revving, and - depending on what the improvements were - the clutch. It's a stretch to call active exhaust an advantage unless it can be set to default to 'quiet mode' when starting and fully user-controllable (as in, individually switchable as opposed to being tied into whatever drive mode) otherwise.

Personally, I think cars should be your sanctuary away from your phone and the people who expect you to be instantly available 24-7, which makes whatever Android auto is a non-starter. And that headlighting should be chosen on illumination performance alone (not on the specific technology used, IOW technology-neutral).

For me, the GT4 is my [relatively] barebones, no-frills thrill-ride. It's my track car and main source of pure driving pleasure.

My GT, meanwhile, is actually a GT. While it's definitely an enjoyable ride which sees some track time and fun trips, it's mostly a daily driver and occasional road-tripper. So some new tech is nice in a car like that for me. When I take a 3-hour drive to visit my parents or friends, it'd be nice for me (or a passenger) to be able to have modern control of my music, and/or to be able to stream maps from my phone instead of using built-in navigation and whatnot. Plus, as a computer engineer [and yeah, as a millennial], I love new tech. I'm no luddite, I enjoy playing with the latest gadgets and seeing what value it can add.

I agree with you about the intrusiveness of driver assists, DCTs, etc in a sports car. Thankfully nannies are usually killable in sports cars like these, though, and that is a separate discussion from infotainment technology. It's entirely possible to not want the former, but still love the latter.

Also, to your point about the active exhaust, to my understanding, that is exactly how it was supposed to work. But even if the valves open up under heavy load no matter your selected exhaust setting, that's fine with me.

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