Blown motor last night

[TheLion]

Well, I was puling onto the highway about 10 minutes after leaving work when I heard a loud noise come from my engine bay and then I lost all oil pressure so I quickly turned the car off, pulled to the shoulder, and had it towed back home where I discovered that the lower connection of the turbo oil feed line had been blown clean off of the block.


I discovered that the lower connection of the turbo oil feed line had been blown clean off of the block.

This would be the indicator above.

Right, that was my first through was a rod, but there was some speculation about oil and cold temps (one of the reasons I went with AMSOIL).

But perhaps there's something more to it, I guess it wasn't a winter safe tune? There might be some merits we are now seeing to what FP and LMS preach about affecting certain tables and creating unsafe conditions for varying climates...we've now seen several motors pop, two which are cold weather and believed to be tune related (although the Unleashed incident was because he didn't switch to the winter tune).

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/buying-maintenance/news/a31138/ford-performance-mustang-ecoboost-specs/

"We have access to things in the software that the typical aftermarket would not," said Kershaw. "When we send out our calibrations, all of our stuff is encrypted because we don't really want to see the aftermarket where we're going and what we're doing."

That is the exact thing LMS told me, but it seems like one really needs to take a lot of care when pushing these high power levels or things like this will happen. Sorry to hear about that, you could buy a stock block for around $1500 or are you going with a built bottom end? There was one company who offered a decent built bottom end for $3k, it was not as robust as the MAP or Livernois, however it was definitely more stout than stock and would be a good upgrade path, but I forget who it was that made it...I think FastRanchero was the one who posted on that a while back when his bottom end gave out.

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[5.0yote]

It was low 40's when it happened, but the had been running for 10 minutes in stop light to stop light so I would hope that it had been warmed up by that point.
The car had 5w-30 royal purple oil which is the only oil I had ran other than the original factory oil that was in it.



I believe that is what has happened and the rod just happened to come out in the oil feed line area. The cars oil temp was completely warm by the time of the problem. Wont know 100% till we pull the motor. Luckily I have to tools and resources readily available to undergo this task.

Now I just need to find me a built short block pretty quickly, going to be contacting MAP here soon to see what there time frame is to get one done.



I believe he was just asking to see if it could be tracked back to an early build like the others. It is indeed an early build, I can look up the exact date here shortly.



This could be a possibility, but I'm pretty sure I threw a rod as I found a few pieces of aluminum that appear to be engine internals. Cant quite make out what they are as they are extremely mangled up.

Yup I understand I am just say slow the roll lets get the facts so we do not have skewed info =)

 

[marjen]

True but I thought if they did the tear down and deny the warranty, they will charge you for the tear down and inspection. And that will cost $.

I don't believe this is the case. When my engine blew the dealership took a bunch of pictures and sent them to Ford. Then Ford made the decision. No work was done on the car until the dealership got approval from Ford. Mine was an early build and it had been tuned.

 

[Juben]

I'm beginning to wonder if there's certain builds during the early models that were incorrectly assembled. Make sure to grab a pic of your engine code off the valve cover when you get a chance. What's interesting is that some codes are blowing and some aren't. The VEP 678 that UPR and Mark had seemed to take all the abuse thrown at them while the VEP 675s and others have popped. We really need to compile this info to see if there's trends within the Spanish builds.

 

[jbailer]

I'm beginning to wonder if there's certain builds during the early models that were incorrectly assembled. Make sure to grab a pic of your engine code off the valve cover when you get a chance. What's interesting is that some codes are blowing and some aren't. The VEP 678 that UPR and Mark had seemed to take all the abuse thrown at them while the VEP 675s and others have popped. We really need to compile this info to see if there's trends within the Spanish builds.

I agree completely and think we've made an attempt at this even if just a weak one in the past. I think part of the problem is the unfortunate person that is going through it is distracted by more important issues at the moment even though it would benefit a lot of people. Who knows, compile enough meaningful data and maybe Ford will learn something from it and do something for ones identified to be susceptible.

Selfishly I hope your observation of the VEP 678 is correct because that's what i have with 29k miles.

 

[TheLion]

I'm beginning to wonder if there's certain builds during the early models that were incorrectly assembled. Make sure to grab a pic of your engine code off the valve cover when you get a chance. What's interesting is that some codes are blowing and some aren't. The VEP 678 that UPR and Mark had seemed to take all the abuse thrown at them while the VEP 675s and others have popped. We really need to compile this info to see if there's trends within the Spanish builds.

Juben, quick side question, how did those FP CAI's turn out? I found a good deal on a FP EB Performance pack for $450 new, so picked it up for a couple reasons: 1. I need the programmer to adjust my gear ratio for the 3.73 swap and my dealer told me they didn't have one so I'd either need to buy one or go to a custom shop 2. I was going to buy the FP CAI for $250 anyway back when you did that group buy but never got around to it and 3. I'd like to have the FP tune as a default go to tune in case I have any issues or concerns, it's a good base line to compare to for data logging.

I wanted to go with the FP CAI to retain the higher filtration capability of a paper filter, sine the FP CAI uses a conical paper filter it will flow better than the stock unit when dirty and have a higher overall dust capacity, so less degradation in flow between service intervals. Did you notice any throttle response improvement (which is the primary benefit)?

 

[KadenW23]

I agree completely and think we've made an attempt at this even if just a weak one in the past. I think part of the problem is the unfortunate person that is going through it is distracted by more important issues at the moment even though it would benefit a lot of people. Who knows, compile enough meaningful data and maybe Ford will learn something from it and do something for ones identified to be susceptible.

Selfishly I hope your observation of the VEP 678 is correct because that's what i have with 29k miles.

When I finally figure out what I'm going to do about the whole situation, I will try to obtain as much info as I can about the engine but like I've stated in a prior post I'm kind of in the dark right now until we open the motor.

I can get you guys the engine code once I get home tonight if that will help determine the engines origin.

 

[jbailer]

I can get you guys the engine code once I get home tonight if that will help determine the engines origin.

That would be great and very much appreciated. As I mentioned we've missed some. It's perfectly understandable for the person going through this to be focused on more important issues but it would be helpful for the community as a whole.

If the engine cover is still on, you don't even need to remove it. I just took my cell phone with the flash on and shot right up under the cover.

 

[perfweld]

When an engine has lasted 30k miles, the rings have seated, there would be no issues with bearings, rod bolts would all be tight, the engine would be more than happy, so don't blame bad assembly. If it was assembled poorly, it would have blown long ago.
My personal stock engine was beat to death but didn't die, and in the end ran passes at 127 mph over and over again. One major factor is it was always run on high octane fuel with constant checking of the logs by Jon Lund , and we can assume the UPR cars stock engine the logs were overly watched as well.
As many know Jon's personal car probably took the most amount of abuse, but in the end, it did break a rod as he got overly aggressive trying to get the car into the 10s, he mustered I think a 11.03 an 11.06 and a 11.09. He then pushed the tune harder trying to go into the 10s, and it broke. A lot of people don't realize the importance of that situation and what he learned that day on how hard a stock engine can be pushed, the UPR car, my own car and his personal car are priceless data on the stock engine and what it can take, which that knowledge will trickle down to his future tunes for other customers in a less stressful situation.
Going back to this situation, the weak link from what I see in these engines are the beam of the connecting rod. I have the original rods and pistons out of my new engine which was bought directly from Ford and is a Spain built engine. The piston pins are very stout, the pistons are very stout for a factory piston as well, the issue I see is the beam of the factory rod is very narrow. My opinion is that when the engine is overly loaded with a lot of boost and timing at low engine speed, or put in a detonation situation, the rod is either bending then breaking, or simply, instantly breaking, and it goes right out the side.
These cars are a blast and can be very fast with lots of boost and timing, but the most important thing everyone needs to remember is that you need a lot of octane, if your tune is on the edge of detonation, it only takes an instant to break one of these. So in the end, use more octane than you need to not allow detonation, check your data logs frequently, and have good communication with your tuner.

 

[jcart953]

I think FastRanchero was the one who posted on that a while back when his bottom end gave out.

I believe there name was AKEperformance or something and there short block was supposed to be $3000 with no core. When I messaged them they stated they no longer make engines for the public anymore and told me to contact Adam. Not sure if that means you have to contact Tune+ who contacts them or if they no longer have an agreement. On a a side note not sure if this block from CNCwerx is still valid:

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49000&highlight=cncwerx

I'm beginning to wonder if there's certain builds during the early models that were incorrectly assembled. Make sure to grab a pic of your engine code off the valve cover when you get a chance. What's interesting is that some codes are blowing and some aren't. The VEP 678 that UPR and Mark had seemed to take all the abuse thrown at them while the VEP 675s and others have popped. We really need to compile this info to see if there's trends within the Spanish builds..

I have 676 so I'm hoping that theory doesn't hold true.

 

[TheLion]

When an engine has lasted 30k miles, the rings have seated, there would be no issues with bearings, rod bolts would all be tight, the engine would be more than happy, so don't blame bad assembly. If it was assembled poorly, it would have blown long ago.
My personal stock engine was beat to death but didn't die, and in the end ran passes at 127 mph over and over again. One major factor is it was always run on high octane fuel with constant checking of the logs by Jon Lund , and we can assume the UPR cars stock engine the logs were overly watched as well.
As many know Jon's personal car probably took the most amount of abuse, but in the end, it did break a rod as he got overly aggressive trying to get the car into the 10s, he mustered I think a 11.03 an 11.06 and a 11.09. He then pushed the tune harder trying to go into the 10s, and it broke. A lot of people don't realize the importance of that situation and what he learned that day on how hard a stock engine can be pushed, the UPR car, my own car and his personal car are priceless data on the stock engine and what it can take, which that knowledge will trickle down to his future tunes for other customers in a less stressful situation.
Going back to this situation, the weak link from what I see in these engines are the beam of the connecting rod. I have the original rods and pistons out of my new engine which was bought directly from Ford and is a Spain built engine. The piston pins are very stout, the pistons are very stout for a factory piston as well, the issue I see is the beam of the factory rod is very narrow. My opinion is that when the engine is overly loaded with a lot of boost and timing at low engine speed, or put in a detonation situation, the rod is either bending then breaking, or simply, instantly breaking, and it goes right out the side.
These cars are a blast and can be very fast with lots of boost and timing, but the most important thing everyone needs to remember is that you need a lot of octane, if your tune is on the edge of detonation, it only takes an instant to break one of these. So in the end, use more octane than you need to not allow detonation, check your data logs frequently, and have good communication with your tuner.

Excellent point on the break in. That's along the lines of my infant mortality theory. Generally if you make it past 36k without any issues or signs of issues I think your generally in good shape regarding the engine being mechanically sound statistically.

I'd agree regarding the octane buffer, no matter how good the tuning is or how much it has been tested, when the car starts to run sub-optimally you can run into problems quickly, the more power you push, more severe the damage will be. That is why I've run Livernois 91 tune with 93 octane, even with their track record, testing methodologies and knowledge, they are not testing for instances of sub-optimal operation like dirty valves or injectors that could cause lean conditions. They test under the assumption the engine is operating properly. While they do add additional safeguards, I"m not sure how much the can realistically test. Even the OE PCM software has limits, we have seen bone stock engines grenade from stuck injectors (although rare, it does happen).

Running on the ragged edge inherently limits the time the ECU can react and increases the severity of said undesirable event. These engines all run on some assumptions that have to be made, for example pushing x amount of timing would lead to at most y-intensity of knock from which no immediate damage will occur if timing is corrected. Knock must occur before the engine backs off timing, however that knock is low intensity and generally not harmful if the timing curve, knock sensitivity and octane are balanced proportionally.

However you can run into conditions where y-intensity of knock may be significantly higher than was assumed possible by the pcm software if you were to run 89 octane while being 91 tuned as an example or if an injector suddenly flows 50% less than it's normally capable of due to blockage, damage or wear, causing a very overly lean condition, which may lead to detonation where it was assumed none would normally occur from x-amount of timing. Essentially the PCM needs to step over the line just a bit and back off in order to know what it can run safely, some times however, due to unaccounted for variables or radical changes in accounted for variables, the PCM's "foot slips well over the line" so to speak.

While safeguards exist to mitigate these types of issues, they can only go so far. The more power you push the more safeguards you need, especially on a street car. Most of these cars aren't grenading at the track, those cars tend to be highly monitored and tuned for the conditions. It's the DD's that grenade because they are not always thoroughly tested for the very dynamic environments DD's actually see, especially in 4-season states. Add to that regular wear and tear, large variations in fuel quality, driving habit changes etc., simply put these cars need a bigger buffer than a dedicated track car.

 

[chadhtx40]

What was the build date on the OP's engine? As others have commented to check and see if it is a Spain engine.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Right, that was my first through was a rod, but there was some speculation about oil and cold temps (one of the reasons I went with AMSOIL).

But perhaps there's something more to it, I guess it wasn't a winter safe tune? There might be some merits we are now seeing to what FP and LMS preach about affecting certain tables and creating unsafe conditions for varying climates...we've now seen several motors pop, two which are cold weather and believed to be tune related (although the Unleashed incident was because he didn't switch to the winter tune).

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/buying-maintenance/news/a31138/ford-performance-mustang-ecoboost-specs/



That is the exact thing LMS told me, but it seems like one really needs to take a lot of care when pushing these high power levels or things like this will happen. Sorry to hear about that, you could buy a stock block for around $1500 or are you going with a built bottom end? There was one company who offered a decent built bottom end for $3k, it was not as robust as the MAP or Livernois, however it was definitely more stout than stock and would be a good upgrade path, but I forget who it was that made it...I think FastRanchero was the one who posted on that a while back when his bottom end gave out.

It's always tough to see a forum member run into this kind of situation. No one wants people to fail engines, but these situations are exactly why we take a certain path on finding power, while maintaining as much safety and reliability as possible. Unfortunately we see so many tuners take lax approaches when it comes to safety all in the name of a 10th of a second, or a few extra HP to build their reputation at the expense of their customer's reliability. Making HP by turning off the very safeties Ford put into place for a plethora of situations and scenarios is the easy way out of what is already the easiest part of any calibration. Taking the time to make a calibration work with safeties and utilize them properly is what takes effort and skill. We try to think in things for the big picture, is a 10th or 2 of a second worth $4-8k? I think almost any customer when presented with the question in this manner might rethink their plan of action. But, it's exactly our mentality with upgrade recommendations. A properly and thoroughly developed tune doesn't need to be changed with the seasons, and should allow for proper diagnostics and safety when legitimate outside issues crop up.

With that said, to the OP, I realize that there is no way to go back in time and change things, so none of this is much comfort to you, but hopefully those reading this be mindful about selecting tunes that have use restrictions like temperatures, blends of fuel, or other aspects. These situations just invite chaos and tragedy because there are so many aspects that cannot be controlled by the user, or the computer with certain safeties disabled.

Now, on the engine front, I believe we can help with that. I just checked with our engine build department and we have one of our newly released Street Series engines with a further upgraded rod in process for a customer. We checked with that customer and this was going to be a back up engine for them for the upcoming race season. To help out a fellow forum member in need, they are ok with having us start over for them and allow you to take their spot in line. Or, we could do our regular Street Series shortblock. The Street Series is $3699 outright, and the Rod Upgrade option that we can get done the quickest would be $3999. Please let us know if we can help in any way!

 

[jbailer]

It's always tough to see a forum member run into this kind of situation. No one wants people to fail engines, but these situations are exactly why we take a certain path on finding power, while maintaining as much safety and reliability as possible. Unfortunately we see so many tuners take lax approaches when it comes to safety all in the name of a 10th of a second, or a few extra HP to build their reputation at the expense of their customer's reliability. Making HP by turning off the very safeties Ford put into place for a plethora of situations and scenarios is the easy way out of what is already the easiest part of any calibration. Taking the time to make a calibration work with safeties and utilize them properly is what takes effort and skill. We try to think in things for the big picture, is a 10th or 2 of a second worth $4-8k? I think almost any customer when presented with the question in this manner might rethink their plan of action. But, it's exactly our mentality with upgrade recommendations. A properly and thoroughly developed tune doesn't need to be changed with the seasons, and should allow for proper diagnostics and safety when legitimate outside issues crop up.

With that said, to the OP, I realize that there is no way to go back in time and change things, so none of this is much comfort to you, but hopefully those reading this be mindful about selecting tunes that have use restrictions like temperatures, blends of fuel, or other aspects. These situations just invite chaos and tragedy because there are so many aspects that cannot be controlled by the user, or the computer with certain safeties disabled.

Now, on the engine front, I believe we can help with that. I just checked with our engine build department and we have one of our newly released Street Series engines with a further upgraded rod in process for a customer. We checked with that customer and this was going to be a back up engine for them for the upcoming race season. To help out a fellow forum member in need, they are ok with having us start over for them and allow you to take their spot in line. Or, we could do our regular Street Series shortblock. The Street Series is $3699 outright, and the Rod Upgrade option that we can get done the quickest would be $3999. Please let us know if we can help in any way!

I don't see the engine options on your web site. Can you share links with the details of what's available in each and price? Also, what is the normal lead time for an order? I'm not looking to buy now, just want to be aware of options.

 

[PRG3k]

I'm beginning to wonder if there's certain builds during the early models that were incorrectly assembled. Make sure to grab a pic of your engine code off the valve cover when you get a chance. What's interesting is that some codes are blowing and some aren't. The VEP 678 that UPR and Mark had seemed to take all the abuse thrown at them while the VEP 675s and others have popped. We really need to compile this info to see if there's trends within the Spanish builds.

There are others. Mine is VEP 677

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