Another Edelbrock E-Force Supercharger Thread

[Whipple SC]

Isn't the edelbrock a smaller blower?

2.65L vs 2.9L so yes, that is never been a question. The test was done to show when others claim false power/efficiency/boost levels and everyone keeps talking about the massive low end torque.

The pulley ratios were as shipped, 3.25" vs 3.75". If you put the 3.5" on the 2.65, boost is identical to ours but power drops significantly.

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[Torinate]

Tested on our car, 2015 Auto, Kooks LT with cats, Borla S type, stock motor:

Whip G3 vs Edelbrock 2650
3.75" SCP vs 3.25" SCP
Same DW72lb Inj
Same calibration except change for Ford Racing throttle body (max size Edel can take)
Whipple 123mm MAF/venturi, 8" S&B filter
Same spark/advance (no knock)
MS109 fuel to eliminate variance from knock events
Whipple oversized heat exchanger/reservoir/pump

Run in 3rd gear on auto (4th hits dyno speed limit)

Bringing this back. Is this a stage 2 Whipple or stage 1? Also on the E-Force, stage 2 or 1?

Thanks

 

[Edelbrock Tech]

Bringing this back. Is this a stage 2 Whipple or stage 1? Also on the E-Force, stage 2 or 1?

Thanks

Neither. They used Whipple parts and tuning with our 2650 head unit to try and replicate our old Stage 2 setup with a 90mm throttle body.

Our new Stage 2 system uses a 103mm throttle body so this "data" is now irrelevant.

 

[Torinate]

So this was a 90 mm throttle body on both? Not the 132 stage 2 Whipple? What would the results be with stage 2’a on each?

Does the E-Force heat exchanger fit with ACC?

 

[Edelbrock Tech]

The Whipple had the 132. The Edelbrock H/E works with ACC.

 

[Whipple SC]

Bringing this back. Is this a stage 2 Whipple or stage 1? Also on the E-Force, stage 2 or 1?

Thanks

It was quite a simple test, some may try to spin it.

We used the Edelbrock Stage 2, directly from dealer. They only had the Ford Racing TB available, it’s what came with the kit at the time. It’s what they sold and said was better than anything else out so we had to see.

To keep the test close, we upgraded the Edelbrock to fix some of it’s less than optimal designed parts and or kit, such as:
Increased airflow capacity air kit, 123mm maf, venturi ring and 8” S&B filter, all significantly outflow Edelbrocks inlet system.
2.5 gallon water reservoir, significantly helping IAT2 temps, Edelbrock doesn’t supply a extra IC reservoir.
HD heat exchanger, double the size of Edelbrocks, again further helping IAT temps.

The calibrations were the same except for the throttle settings since it used old electronics.
Same timing
Same air fuel/Lambda
Same cam schedule
Same exhaust
Same day
Same car
Same dyno operator
Same auxiliary fans blowing on vehicle
Same race gas
Same conditions

Edelbrock claims they are now all good because they opened the inlet and went to a bigger TB that still flows significantly less than our 132 or 150, nor does it match the CFM capacity of the 2650. Its funny, Edelbrock says, well we fixed the inlet issue, yet there wasn’t one at that blower speed. You can’t make boost on the same application if the throttle or air intake system restricts, boost will go down as airflow gets choked. Load went up because airflow went up, which correlated with the boost going up. In fact, both the Whipple and Edelbrock held just under 1” of vacuum at the inlet. A 90mm TB with high flow intake system has no restrictions at this blower speed so that’s smoke in mirrors.

Results show, higher boost levels, higher load values, yet lower power. While we tested this, do your research and everyone that has run these setups will show you the same data unless they are trying to push these. It’s almost always 2-3psi more to get the same power. And keep in mind, this was comparing to our Gen 3, not Gen 4 or Gen 5. At the time, the Edelbrock was about $1500 more than ours and you got far less!

 

[Kona 18]

The dyno graph posted of the Edelbrock doesn't look anything like mine. This is a 6th gear pull, 7th read 25whp and 50wtrq higher, but we had some slip on the dyno so proceeded to do out pulls in 6th.

Red = 15* of timing
Blue = 16.5* of timing
Green = 13* of timing

The tune is set up to run a flat spark curve, so KR does not add or remove timing(unless knock is detected, how ever no knock was detected on any of the pulls)


Edelbrock stage 1 w/stock TB and airbox(3.25" pulley making 10psi through out the entire RPM band)
DW95 injectors
Stock fuel system on 93 octane
Magnaflow catback exhaust
stock headers/cats

If you notice peak torque is made around 2800rpm(would make it sooner but there is a nitrous pill in my bypass to help ramp in the boost slower). The dyno posted showing the whipple vs Edelbrock has torque showing low then ramping up around 5000rpm. I also spun mine to 8200 to see how it looked like revving as high on a stock TB and airbox, you can def see the TB and airbox start chocking the rotors out around 7500rpm where they stop making more power.

The 103mm TB is def going to help with pressure drop across the TB with this blower. While it may not be as large as the 132/150 variants from Whipple, it will def help when compared to the stock 80mm or FRPP/BBK 90mm. I plan to upgrade to this once it's available and will be posting more dyno results with pulls to 8200rpm like above to show how it does.

 

[Platinum_5.0]

The TQ just falls right off and HP starts to go flat at about 6800 :(

 

[Kona 18]

The TQ just falls right off and HP starts to go flat at about 6800 :(

It does look that way, but keep 2 things in mind, it makes tons of low end torque, and I’m still running stock TB and airbox. If you wanted to compare it to a whipple it would look more like:

Torque falls off from peak where Whipples hood flat, how ever the whipple doesn’t make high torque like the TVS does

 

[Torinate]

It was quite a simple test, some may try to spin it.

We used the Edelbrock Stage 2, directly from dealer. They only had the Ford Racing TB available, it’s what came with the kit at the time. It’s what they sold and said was better than anything else out so we had to see.

To keep the test close, we upgraded the Edelbrock to fix some of it’s less than optimal designed parts and or kit, such as:
Increased airflow capacity air kit, 123mm maf, venturi ring and 8” S&B filter, all significantly outflow Edelbrocks inlet system.
2.5 gallon water reservoir, significantly helping IAT2 temps, Edelbrock doesn’t supply a extra IC reservoir.
HD heat exchanger, double the size of Edelbrocks, again further helping IAT temps.

The calibrations were the same except for the throttle settings since it used old electronics.
Same timing
Same air fuel/Lambda
Same cam schedule
Same exhaust
Same day
Same car
Same dyno operator
Same auxiliary fans blowing on vehicle
Same race gas
Same conditions

Edelbrock claims they are now all good because they opened the inlet and went to a bigger TB that still flows significantly less than our 132 or 150, nor does it match the CFM capacity of the 2650. Its funny, Edelbrock says, well we fixed the inlet issue, yet there wasn’t one at that blower speed. You can’t make boost on the same application if the throttle or air intake system restricts, boost will go down as airflow gets choked. Load went up because airflow went up, which correlated with the boost going up. In fact, both the Whipple and Edelbrock held just under 1” of vacuum at the inlet. A 90mm TB with high flow intake system has no restrictions at this blower speed so that’s smoke in mirrors.

Results show, higher boost levels, higher load values, yet lower power. While we tested this, do your research and everyone that has run these setups will show you the same data unless they are trying to push these. It’s almost always 2-3psi more to get the same power. And keep in mind, this was comparing to our Gen 3, not Gen 4 or Gen 5. At the time, the Edelbrock was about $1500 more than ours and you got far less!

Can you tell me when the Gen 4 and Gen 5 will be available for my 2016? I’ve been emailing with Cody but haven’t been given any real timelines etc. also between the 3 - Gen 3 4 & 5, which one will make the most power or be the best “fit” for my heavy automatic ‘16 convertible? Can you say for certain without a doubt the bigger heat exchanger will fit with adaptive cruise and it will function as factory? I have been told from you guys “oh yea, it works and fits”, but I haven’t found anyone yet that can confirm this. Do you have any special or updated instructions for making this combo work? Pics? I’ve been told the base HE fits with ACC buts it’s REALLY TIGHT and they doubt it will work.

What is the lead time for the Gen 4 and / or 5? Can I order and pay now? Will the stage 2s on the newer ones still utilize the 132mm TB?

What software comes with them? Which tuner comes with them? What adjustability do they offer? I’ve read a little about the tomahawk but really don’t know much. I haven’t been able to find anything on your website.

Thanks for the information! Cody can also email me directly with this information. I would buy from a vendor here on the forum - support those that support us with their expertise and knowledge.

Thanks again!

 

[Torinate]

It does look that way, but keep 2 things in mind, it makes tons of low end torque, and I’m still running stock TB and airbox. If you wanted to compare it to a whipple it would look more like:

Torque falls off from peak where Whipples hood flat, how ever the whipple doesn’t make high torque like the TVS does

Torque is a good thing! I’ve read the TVS is king of low rpm torque...

Trying to figure it all out though for my application. Low rpm torque vs power everywhere vs high rpm screamer. Or turbo lol.

TVS vs Whipple vs Procharger vs turbo.

 

[Platinum_5.0]

It does look that way, but keep 2 things in mind, it makes tons of low end torque, and I’m still running stock TB and airbox. If you wanted to compare it to a whipple it would look more like:

Torque falls off from peak where Whipples hood flat, how ever the whipple doesn’t make high torque like the TVS does

I must say that I do like your drawing ..lol...Yeah I understand about the stock airbox and throttle body. It will be interesting to see the differences. Each kit is great in their own way. The whole "tons more TQ" thing still is kinda weird to me. I've seen a little more in my searching but nothing crazy. Here is my graph of when my car was dynoed with the stage 2 Whipple kit, 94 pump fuel, stock cats, stock headers, dynojet, 18* timing and the stock whipple calibration. I'd like to see an Edlebrock or other stock kit for TQ comparsion that shows this "massive" TQ

 

[Whipple SC]

The dyno graph posted of the Edelbrock doesn't look anything like mine. This is a 6th gear pull, 7th read 25whp and 50wtrq higher, but we had some slip on the dyno so proceeded to do out pulls in 6th.

Red = 15* of timing
Blue = 16.5* of timing
Green = 13* of timing

The tune is set up to run a flat spark curve, so KR does not add or remove timing(unless knock is detected, how ever no knock was detected on any of the pulls)


Edelbrock stage 1 w/stock TB and airbox(3.25" pulley making 10psi through out the entire RPM band)
DW95 injectors
Stock fuel system on 93 octane
Magnaflow catback exhaust
stock headers/cats

If you notice peak torque is made around 2800rpm(would make it sooner but there is a nitrous pill in my bypass to help ramp in the boost slower). The dyno posted showing the whipple vs Edelbrock has torque showing low then ramping up around 5000rpm. I also spun mine to 8200 to see how it looked like revving as high on a stock TB and airbox, you can def see the TB and airbox start chocking the rotors out around 7500rpm where they stop making more power.

The 103mm TB is def going to help with pressure drop across the TB with this blower. While it may not be as large as the 132/150 variants from Whipple, it will def help when compared to the stock 80mm or FRPP/BBK 90mm. I plan to upgrade to this once it's available and will be posting more dyno results with pulls to 8200rpm like above to show how it does.

First, your testing a 2018, not a 2015. Different engines, different results. 2018 has better heads and cam, lowers boost 1psi, all else equal.

We measured vacuum, we don’t need to estimate what flow the SC needs, we know that and a larger, higher flowing TB is only required when the SC or engine flows more than the Tb can, causing a choke. The 3.0” showed a choke around 7000rpm with 90mm. This shows in the referenced load, as the MAF sees less airflow, vacuum sensor at the inlet, post TB along with the boost reading. We can put a 300mm throttle body on, it’s not gonna make more power than the 132mm at stock pulley ratios.

A 103mm will help at pulley ratios above 2.15+ but is still a restriction at higher air volume. Check your boost reading and load, as rpm goes up, power goes down. Your restriction is actually the airbox, then the stock TB. Your down 50RWHP from what you would be with almost any other system with stock TB at the same boost and a good calibration. Change your air intake to something better and airflow will go up, as will boost which is exactly what we’re saying.

It’s very simple, it does ok, but it doesn’t actually match the Roush, VMP, KB nor our system in boost vs power at pump gas, race gas or E85. Making more power at lower boost is always a good thing.

 

[Platinum_5.0]

First, your testing a 2018, not a 2015

Lol...

 

[Whipple SC]

Torque is a good thing! I’ve read the TVS is king of low rpm torque...

Trying to figure it all out though for my application. Low rpm torque vs power everywhere vs high rpm screamer. Or turbo lol.

TVS vs Whipple vs Procharger vs turbo.

This torque is normal. It’s a 12:1 motor with dI, it makes more torque than a 2015. The only time TVS makes more torque is when you pulley down but have restriction up top to control airflow at higher rpm.

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