Sponsored

return-less fuel systems thoughts and ideas

DougS550

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 18, 2020
Threads
238
Messages
3,491
Reaction score
1,773
Location
Indiana
First Name
Doug
Vehicle(s)
2019 GT Premium A10 PP1 Whipple Stage 2
@DougS550 I just don't know enough about it to make recommendations. If it were me I'd be asking questions about 1) current draw on the stock fpdm and wiring, 2) lack of a fuel filter, 3) fuel level sensor, 4) how the capacity compares to a stock GT500 setup since we don't know what pumps are included, 5) does it include check valves. The stock GT500 fuel pump module is under $500 so I'd be hard-pressed to spend 3x that on something I can't quantify the advantages of and may only be incrementally better (or worse).
1: Is the GT500 fuel pump hat/bucket assembly a drop in unit into a 19 GT?
2: One assembly or one on each side?
3: what pumps do you feel would be best
4: What all parts would i need to buy, install to get them to work. 5: Does anyone have a list of parts I would need to get it to work.
I know this is allot of questions, but this seems like a viable alternative to run E85 at 850whp.
Thank you for your help.
Sponsored

 

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
3,714
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
1: Is the GT500 fuel pump hat/bucket assembly a drop in unit into a 19 GT?
It drops into the drivers side. You only have to cap off one of the venturi lines.

2: One assembly or one on each side?
Just the drivers side unless you want to replicate the gt500 passenger side setup.

3: what pumps do you feel would be best
Iā€™m not convinced thereā€™s a higher capacity brushed pump than the dw400, once you account for the check valve and venturi. The stock gen3/gt500 are very close behind in flow but much more efficient.

4: What all parts would i need to buy, install to get them to work.
Gt500 fuel line, to get the filter setup, gt500 bucket, wiring/connectors, and tuning software and hardware.

5: Does anyone have a list of parts I would need to get it to work.
I doubt it.

this seems like a viable alternative to run E85 at 850whp..
For 850 whp on e85 Iā€™d just run a single dw400 at 20-22 volts. Very simple and low cost.
 

DougS550

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 18, 2020
Threads
238
Messages
3,491
Reaction score
1,773
Location
Indiana
First Name
Doug
Vehicle(s)
2019 GT Premium A10 PP1 Whipple Stage 2
It drops into the drivers side. You only have to cap off one of the venturi lines.



Just the drivers side unless you want to replicate the gt500 passenger side setup.



Iā€™m not convinced thereā€™s a higher capacity brushed pump than the dw400, once you account for the check valve and venturi. The stock gen3/gt500 are very close behind in flow but much more efficient.



Gt500 fuel line, to get the filter setup, gt500 bucket, wiring/connectors, and tuning software and hardware.



I doubt it.



For 850 whp on e85 Iā€™d just run a single dw400 at 20-22 volts. Very simple and low cost.
Will the pump run at 100% on 20-22vdc or will it vary under load
 

HKusp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2021
Threads
31
Messages
1,367
Reaction score
1,786
Location
Hampton, Md.
First Name
Jason
Vehicle(s)
2018 Mustang GT
Radium fuel hat with twin Ti274's or Ti285's Doug. Get the wiring harness that Juggernaut sells for about $200. The pumps and the fuel hat are about $800, or you could get a complete stage 2 Arcane set-up with lines, fittings, fuel hat, pumps, pressure gauge and filter for about $1300. I think you already have Whipple rails, correct?

https://juggernautpower.com/collect...-1800-hp-11-mustang-gt?variant=41180410970294
 

DougS550

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 18, 2020
Threads
238
Messages
3,491
Reaction score
1,773
Location
Indiana
First Name
Doug
Vehicle(s)
2019 GT Premium A10 PP1 Whipple Stage 2

Sponsored

DougS550

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 18, 2020
Threads
238
Messages
3,491
Reaction score
1,773
Location
Indiana
First Name
Doug
Vehicle(s)
2019 GT Premium A10 PP1 Whipple Stage 2
The jms 22 volt units will lower the voltage at low demand. The factory fuel pump control will lower it even more, as low as 1 volt in some cases.
So I take it the BAP takes a signal control Input from the stock fuel pump harness to do this?.
If the fuel pump fails will the engine go into limp mode to save engine from detonation?.
Thanks. Great info here. I will decide this week. I have already contacted a local Race fuel supplier in case i dont go with ethonol.
 

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
3,714
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
So I take it the BAP takes a signal control Input from the stock fuel pump harness to do this?.
On a regular non-variable 18v BAP, the BAP simply boost voltage feeding the FPDM. The FPDM is the PWM controller that can cut the voltage down. The only issue here is that the max and mins may need adjustment in the tune and most tuners don't bother. The 22v BAPs can usually or ramp between high and low voltage as a function of boost, pedal, or even the stock PWM signal (JMS EZ version). In these, you really have both the FPDM and the PCM ramping voltage up and down to the pump. Again, the issues here are the tune really needs to be set up to make sure you're getting the full range.

If the fuel pump fails will the engine go into limp mode to save engine from detonation?.
The factory FPDM performs diagnostics on the pump and there are something like 3-4 possible faults it can communicate back to the PCM. I don't know if this triggers a limp mode. However, on my own car, I actually ran 39# injectors on E85 and confirmed it will cut the throttle when it runs out of injector, and and the injector pulsewidth increases if fuel pressure falls. So basically, at least what my own tests indicate, if my fuel pump fails and it doesn't go into limp, it will shut the throttle anyway due running out of available pulsewidth. Another protection that most tuners neglect, is that you can pull timing when it goes lean.
 

DougS550

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 18, 2020
Threads
238
Messages
3,491
Reaction score
1,773
Location
Indiana
First Name
Doug
Vehicle(s)
2019 GT Premium A10 PP1 Whipple Stage 2
On a regular non-variable 18v BAP, the BAP simply boost voltage feeding the FPDM. The FPDM is the PWM controller that can cut the voltage down. The only issue here is that the max and mins may need adjustment in the tune and most tuners don't bother. The 22v BAPs can usually or ramp between high and low voltage as a function of boost, pedal, or even the stock PWM signal (JMS EZ version). In these, you really have both the FPDM and the PCM ramping voltage up and down to the pump. Again, the issues here are the tune really needs to be set up to make sure you're getting the full range.



The factory FPDM performs diagnostics on the pump and there are something like 3-4 possible faults it can communicate back to the PCM. I don't know if this triggers a limp mode. However, on my own car, I actually ran 39# injectors on E85 and confirmed it will cut the throttle when it runs out of injector, and and the injector pulsewidth increases if fuel pressure falls. So basically, at least what my own tests indicate, if my fuel pump fails and it doesn't go into limp, it will shut the throttle anyway due running out of available pulsewidth. Another protection that most tuners neglect, is that you can pull timing when it goes lean.
Hey Mike. Does anyone make a BAP or equivalent which varies pump volts accordingly to fuel demand so the pump doesn't run at 18vdc all of the time?
 

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
3,714
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
Hey Mike. Does anyone make a BAP or equivalent which varies pump volts accordingly to fuel demand so the pump doesn't run at 18vdc all of the time?
Yes thatā€™s what I was describing in the first part of post 68. The jms 22v has a number of inputs, with one being pedal position, and will ramp voltage up and down. The jms ez version ramp up and down with fuel pump commanded duty cycle and it works pretty well. However, with the stock fpdm doing its thing, thereā€™s not much reason to ramp voltage down since thatā€™s what the fpdm does.
 

Sponsored

DougS550

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 18, 2020
Threads
238
Messages
3,491
Reaction score
1,773
Location
Indiana
First Name
Doug
Vehicle(s)
2019 GT Premium A10 PP1 Whipple Stage 2
Yes thatā€™s what I was describing in the first part of post 68. The jms 22v has a number of inputs, with one being pedal position, and will ramp voltage up and down. The jms ez version ramp up and down with fuel pump commanded duty cycle and it works pretty well. However, with the stock fpdm doing its thing, thereā€™s not much reason to ramp voltage down since thatā€™s what the fpdm does.
I heard some tuners don't like pedal demand switches. I would prefer one that takes its signal from a taco wire and vary in accordance with RPM. Also, with a BAP installed, is it the soul source of voltage to the pump or does it add voltage above 12vdc?
 

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
3,714
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
I heard some tuners don't like pedal demand switches.
I'm not a big fan either but mine has worked so far. If I could do it over again I would probably do the EZ BAP now that my friend has proven it works.

I would prefer one that takes its signal from a taco wire and vary in accordance with RPM.
RPM doesn't dictate fuel demand. The FPDM duty cycle does, which is why the EZ version works well.

Also, with a BAP installed, is it the soul source of voltage to the pump or does it add voltage above 12vdc?
In order to add voltage it has to be in series. The BAP is basically an inverter, step-up transformer, then rectifier. That's the only way to increase DC voltage.
 

DougS550

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 18, 2020
Threads
238
Messages
3,491
Reaction score
1,773
Location
Indiana
First Name
Doug
Vehicle(s)
2019 GT Premium A10 PP1 Whipple Stage 2
I'm not a big fan either but mine has worked so far. If I could do it over again I would probably do the EZ BAP now that my friend has proven it works.



RPM doesn't dictate fuel demand. The FPDM duty cycle does, which is why the EZ version works well.



In order to add voltage it has to be in series. The BAP is basically an inverter, step-up transformer, then rectifier. That's the only way to increase DC voltage.
Let me research the JMS Fuelmax EZ, if that is what your talking about?. Running your fuel pump(s) on demand would be more efficient and extend pump life.
 

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,271
Reaction score
3,714
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
Let me research the JMS Fuelmax EZ, if that is what youā€™re talking about?.
Yes

Running your fuel pump(s) on demand would be more efficient and extend pump life.
Thatā€™s what I like so much about factory own control. Bap or no bap it turns the voltage way down when it isnā€™t needed, as low as 1 volt. It just has to be tuned right.
 

DougS550

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 18, 2020
Threads
238
Messages
3,491
Reaction score
1,773
Location
Indiana
First Name
Doug
Vehicle(s)
2019 GT Premium A10 PP1 Whipple Stage 2
Yes



Thatā€™s what I like so much about factory own control. Bap or no bap it turns the voltage way down when it isnā€™t needed, as low as 1 volt. It just has to be tuned right.
I read some info on it and like what I see. It does what I am wanting with regard to a voltage booster, but a fully controllable one. I will email JMS and ask specific questions as to its function and capability.
Sponsored

 
 




Top