Which camber plates, mm or vorslag?

[MikeR397]

O ya, those splined strut bolts were a pita to get out when I put my steeda plates in. The video shows it so easy, a few wacks of a hammer. I literally had to use a sledge hammer (did not have my new 3lb hammer at the time) and the sledge had to be used with some force! I put the nut on the end to hit them out per instructions to help save the bolt.

Ya, I’m concerned -4.3 driver and -3.1 passenger will drive funky on the road. I may just have to live with 4 maybe 5 days on the fronts with a rotate. Looking into spare cf wheels which will help a lot too. Still need to try Porsche sped ps2 as well.

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[jmn444]

what track are you running, just saw you are in MI.....

 

[MikeR397]

I’m 20 min away from both Waterford hills and M1 concourse. Frequent grattan often, just did 2 days there last weekend. Gingerman and mid Ohio are are the first time to do list this year. I do most of RSR Porsche Club events, as a member $145 each and open passing and solid drivers in advanced is a lot of fun. Otherwise just keep an eye for club events, open track days occasionally but no open passing / straight only and full track can be a bit of a bore.

If you are in the area, pm me. Next event is July 9th RSR at Waterford hills.

 

[jmn444]

Nice. I've only done Gingerman so far, going to try and hit Grattan this fall.

 

[MikeR397]

So I’m thinking the -3 degrees camber is too much.. recap (all with a left to right rotate after 3 days): stock I chorded the outside fronts on 4th or 5th day (2 sets did this) . -2.1 still chorded the outside fronts mid 5th day. Now -3.0 I’m chording inside and/or middle on middle of 5th day. Pic from today:

the outsides look good (smooth but good), and insides looked great starting today, lots of tread and meat, then all the sudden giant chunks come off and inside chords as you can see. This is the second set now the inside chords like this with -3, but the first time the center also chords. This happened middle of 5th day also.

So it seems even with a rotate no matter what camber I’m not going to get 5 days on the fronts. That’s fine, but I don’t love the way the inner half chunks away so much and think I need to try -2.5 perhaps.

Edit: why would the insides have the tread lines still present her chunk and chord like this? The 2 material design of the in and out cup 2 is a tricky beast.

 

[BillyJRacing]

Use a PROBE type tire pyrometer and learn how to use it. That's the best tool to dial in your camber. You want a 20-30*F spread from outside to inside (inside hotter).

How many miles are you getting in that set? Are those carbon R wheels or aluminum replicas? -3* is probably too much for most tracks on CF wheels.

 

[MikeR397]

Use a PROBE type tire pyrometer and learn how to use it. That's the best tool to dial in your camber. You want a 20-30*F spread from outside to inside (inside hotter).

How many miles are you getting in that set? Are those carbon R wheels or aluminum replicas? -3* is probably too much for most tracks on CF wheels.

Thanks Billy. I did use a pyrometer and wear looked pretty good at first, see pics/details above in this thread: Which camber plates, mm or vorslag?

Driver was 20 degrees hotter on Outside while passenger was about even after a session with -3 degrees camber and a fresh alignment to suggested toe specs.

These are the R carbon wheels. In the photos of the two fronts here, it’s the following miles:use since new a couple months ago: drove on highway about 100 miles to Grattan for 2 days tracking (~ 5 20 min sessions daily), drove home 100 miles. Two days later drove 15 miles to Waterford hills for a track day, then home. I swapped front left wheel to front right at this point. Two weeks later drove 15 miles to M1 concourse for track day then home. Two weeks after they drove 100 miles to Grattan and got 3 25 min sessions in before lunch when these fronts looked like this and I swapped for my spare carbon fronts. Pretty much zero road use except to/from track.

It is just strange how the inside half material looks great until it suddenly chunks off and rips away to the chords. The outside half wears much more smoothly and consistently. I’ve killed four sets of fronts this year, chording outsides with stock camber and -2.0, now chording insides with -3.0 degrees, always early/mid 5th track day with low road miles. It looks like 3 degrees is wearing more even, until the very end the inside chunks and chords even though the grooves are still on the inside.

 

[BillyJRacing]

Thanks Billy. I did use a pyrometer and wear looked pretty good at first, see pics/details above in this thread: Which camber plates, mm or vorslag?

Driver was 20 degrees hotter on Outside while passenger was about even after a session with -3 degrees camber and a fresh alignment to suggested toe specs.

These are the R carbon wheels. In the photos of the two fronts here, it’s the following since new 2 months ago: drove on highway about 100 miles to Grattan for 2 days tracking (~ 5 20 min sessions daily), drove home 100 miles. Two days later drove 15 miles to Waterford hills for a track day, then home. I swapped front left to front right at this point. Two weeks later drove 15 miles to M1 concourse for track day then home. Two weeks after they drove 100 miles to Grattan and got 3 25 min sessions in before lunch when these fronts looked like this and I swapped for my spare carbon fronts. Pretty much zero road use except to/from track.

It is just strange how the inside half material looks great until it suddenly chunks off and rips away to the chords. The outside half wears much more smoothly and consistently. I’ve killed four sets of fronts this year, chording outsides with stock camber and -2.0, now chording insides with -3.0 degrees, always early/mid 5th track day with low road miles.

Do you use a PROBE type pyrometer or an infrared? If you don't use a probe, if you don't check it hot (no cool down lap), if you don't stab the tire 2-3x to pre-heat the probe, if you don't start from the inside of the tire (then check the middle, then check the outer), if you don't stick the needle ALL the way in at a 45* angle into the rubber, and if you don't check in the center of the tread blocks, your readings could be erroneous and give you bad readings/results.

100 miles street

Grattan: 100 mins at Grattan (let's just say a 1:30 lap time for easy #s) = 66 laps per day or 132 laps for your 2 day weekend. That's 248 miles.

100 miles street
15 miles street

Waterford Hills: (how much track time?)

15 miles street
15 miles street

M1 Concourse: (how much track time?)

15 miles street
100 miles street

Grattan: 75 mins at Grattan ((let's just say a 1:30 lap time for easy #s) = 50 laps. That's 94 miles.


So you have 360-460 street miles and 348 track miles at Grattan alone, in addition to Waterford & M1 Concourse.

That's pretty reasonable when you consider most tires (for these types of cars) will only last about 100-150 miles of track use when driven at the limit. Something to consider is, as you advance as a driver and become faster, your tire wear will increase and you will get to cords far sooner than your current (well over) 348 track miles.

I would be pretty happy with that tire wear. There may be people who say they have better tire wear, but they could also be a much slower driver. Likewise, faster drivers will have worse tire longevity than you. So I don't think you have any sort of 'problem'. Your tire wear looks reasonable and due to the dual compounding, the wear will never be exactly the same from the inside to the outside. That's why you need a PROBE type pyrometer, and to learn how to use it properly. That'll tell you exactly where your camber needs to be.

Food for thought.

 

[MikeR397]

Thanks for sharing the great info. I had no idea tires could last so little at the true limit.

I have used both a Probe and Infrared pyrometer, but they were borrowed from friends and I'm certainly not being as through as you describe, and yes always have done a cool down lap before measurements.

In the above miles, I forgot I probably had 30 round trip miles to a hotel at Grattan as well. For Waterford and M1 they were also 5 20 min sessions. Your Mileage estimates seem pretty close. I don't time myself but run with many others who do and it seems I run about 1.26s at Grattan on a clean lap, but of course there's time stuck in a little traffic before a point, incidents that cut time a little short, ect. I'd suspect about 50/50 ratio of ~1,000 miles in total then very roughly.

I am ok with the tire wear. I only looked into this more based on several friends who run similar times as me with their Porsche GT3's but get well over double the tire life. But there's a ton of differences (1) different spec Cup2 tire with more tread for Porsche (2) engine in the rear (3) car is 400lbs lighter than my R and I am almost 100lbs heavier than most drivers at 6'6'' and 275lbs (4) Porsche has rear wheel steer and independent rear wheel power differences.... anyway, I guess it's not an apt comparison but they do seem to get a minimum of double the life out of their tires (well front tires, my rear tires wear quite well and seem to heat cycle out after about 8 track days, I just finished 7 days on my rears and they look like this photo and are still gripping well but starting to slide a little more. I've got a day at Pitt Friday and hopefully 2 at NCM in KY later this month to end the year, just going to change rear tires now since I only have 1 spare CF wheel after my crack and warranty battle situation currently...

On a related wearable note, I'm done with OEM brake pads and am going to try Raybestos ST43's next season having just installed my last set of OEM pads. They work well and are easy on the rotors, but 5 days is the most I get and it’s too much effort changing so much. This pic is after 5 full track days and otherwise just highway cruising to the track, completely roasted front pads (rear last almost double). This is the first time I've seen a pad wear so uneven though, but only one pad out of the front 4 did this, others were more even but still about 2mm left out of 9.5mm in 5 days. Have a new set of flat rotors to try with the ST43's next year.

Edit: a rotatable square setup would seem to benefit me. Not sure how to make that work with CF wheels, spacers and what size tires?

 

[BillyJRacing]

Invest in a probe type yourself, corner at 100% on your cooldown lap (but you can brake early/light to cool the brakes and don't have to be full throttle on the straights to cool the engine on your cooldown lap), and measure your tire temps HOT. Your previous measurements were likely not accurate or representative.

How does your friend's GT3 lap times compare to yours? A 991.1 GT3 turns almost identical lap times to your R on most tracks.

GT3 - 3,150lbs
F tire tread width - 9.6" - 26.8" OD - 7.2/32"
R tire tread width - 11.6" - 27.2" OD - 7.2/32"
= 42.4" total
=74.3lbs per inch of tread width

GT350R - 3,760lbs
F tire tread width - 11.0" - 26.3" OD - 5.5/32" (2/32" less)
R tire tread width - 11.5" - 26.5" OD - 6/32" (1.5/32" less)
= 45" total
=83.6lbs per inch of tread width

Every square inch of the GT350R's footprint carries more weight than the GT3, the overall diameter is less, and the tread width is slightly less. When driven at the limit, the GT3's tire won't last anywhere near 2X longer than the GT350R, but when driving below the limit, it can last longer -like anything else.

On that note, same goes for brakes. 5 track days out of stock pads isn't bad. Normally 2-3 days is common for most tracks at the limit. ST43's will be harder on rotors, will last a little longer, but will make noise on the street and won't be as 'streetable' as stock. If those tradeoffs are worth the price difference, then go for it. That pad wear is normal and not out of the norm, but as you go faster and use the brakes more effectively, your wear will get worse. Going fast is expensive, especially in a heavy powerful car with a lot of grip. Going slow is cheap. Going slow in a light car is very cheap. Those are just facts of life.

I guess the only way would be to get another set of rear wheels and spacers for the front to rotate a square CF setup. But then you would have to run a rear tire up front, which is designed for the load and needs of the rear, while the front 305 Cup 2 is designed for the load, steering response, etc... of the front of the car. As you go faster and your tire wear gets worse, the benefit of swapping fronts to the rear becomes less important and will not really improve your tire longevity. The slower you drive, and the worse you drive (poor driving can cause excess front tire wear), then rotating tires F-R becomes more financially viable.

 

[MikeR397]

So I’m thinking the -3 degrees camber is too much.. recap (all with a left to right rotate after 3 days): stock I chorded the outside fronts on 4th or 5th day (2 sets did this) . -2.1 still chorded the outside fronts mid 5th day. Now -3.0 I’m chording inside and/or middle on middle of 5th day. Pic from today:

the outsides look good (smooth but good), and insides looked great starting today, lots of tread and meat, then all the sudden giant chunks come off and inside chords as you can see. This is the second set now the inside chords like this with -3, but the first time the center also chords. This happened middle of 5th day also.

So it seems even with a rotate no matter what camber I’m not going to get 5 days on the fronts. That’s fine, but I don’t love the way the inner half chunks away so much and think I need to try -2.5 perhaps.

Edit: why would the insides have the tread lines still present her chunk and chord like this? The 2 material design of the in and out cup 2 is a tricky beast.

Ya, need to go less than -3 front camber. This is what happened after 3 long track days and perhaps 1,000 road miles with -3 front camber.

I rotated fronts after 2 days (6 20 min session at pitt then gingerman) And they chorded at the very end of a 3rd full open track day at grattan (maybe 6 25 min sessions, one in rain). New record killing tires in 3 days for me, but they were longer sessions and more time as it was full open track days.

the more worn one (second pic) was on driver front for 2 days first then passenger front. It seems the passenger side (first pic) wears way more unevenly with -3 , as the less worn one with only inside chord is

should I try -2.5 on both front now or maybe -2.7 driver and -2.3 passenger? This is just a track car, but does drive to all the tracks (no trailer) and probably gets 800+ road miles on each tire set

eta: rears continue to wear perfect, just having issues with fronts

 

[Narwaniec594]

Whats your toe settings? I dont think -3 camber would chew up tires that quick. I use my car on weekends with -2.8 up front and 0 toe and tire wear seems ok, so far i out about 1000 street miles and dont see huge excesive wear. Have not been on track yet with my setup (-2.8 front , -2.5 rear) i will go in 3 weeks so i will see.

 

[MikeR397]

Whats your toe settings? I dont think -3 camber would chew up tires that quick. I use my car on weekends with -2.8 up front and 0 toe and tire wear seems ok, so far i out about 1000 street miles and dont see huge excesive wear. Have not been on track yet with my setup (-2.8 front , -2.5 rear) i will go in 3 weeks so i will see.

Basically 0 degrees toe although I asked for supplement toe spec which was -.1 degrees I think.

you not being on track is the difference. It’ll take a few thousand street miles to show the wear at least, and also -2.8 is probably wayyy too much for street, it’s just rolling on the insides of the tires and you will chord insides very prominently eventually. It looks like Normal wear until about 10 track sessions for me and then chunks start ripping off.

I’m gonna move my camber plates in a bit and target -2.4 or -2.5 camber and have ford check the alignment when it’s in getting new tires and some cel issues. My use shows -2.1 is not enough (outsides chorded) and -3 is too much negative camber (Mostly inside chorded) , particularly for the driver front even with rotating.

 

[JAJ]

This thread might provide some useful input:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...rbon-fiber-gt350r-wheels-vs-al-wheels.109837/

If you're tracking (super-stiff) CF rims, it's probably best to start with Ford's recommended camber and adjust from there.

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