Vargas Stage 2 Owners

[Juben]

Something else to consider is that a lot of people on this forum seem to be new(er) to turbo cars and even upgraded turbos. If I'd never driven anything but a stock car and then went to something the size of a 5862, it'd probably take some adjusting. However, that doesn't mean it's a crappy turbo. The best thing for people to do is just to install it and drive it around for a month or so. It's different from these small baby (stock) turbos, but I promise once you drive larger turbo cars, you'll loathe the stock turbo. I hate it. I'd give up a little spool anyday to have a much improved top end in the car.

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[Scott Wilson]

Here is a decent comparison on the dyno, which is not the street, but still worth comparing. GTX2867R Vs VTT Stage 2.

Lot of talk in another thread of the GTX2867R being more responsive. I will let you be the judge.

GTX graph is 93 pump, and 93 pump with meth. Pump only 383/404

VTT Stage 2 Red graph 93 pump only 380/409 basically these turbos spool exactly the same as you can see, they almost outline each others curves down low. The main difference is look at the S2 up top, its continuing to pull, and hold power flat all the way out to 7K. The 2867R is already starting to falling around 6K, and you can see the down trend.

The green graph is VTT S2 on 100% E85, its makes 462/460. I believe the GTX2867R might, and that is a big might do similar numbers on 100% E85, but the turbo is only rated at 475BHP not WHP so if you brought it up that range its running on the ragged edge. Our turbo is rated for over 560BHP. So at 500WHP you are in a nice efficient range in the compressor map.

The only purpose of this comparison is to show spool characteristics with a turbo that is actually rated at less power, and cannot hold power up top, the VTT Stage 2 spools nearly identical, and just keeps on pulling... All for sub $2K........

Bang meet buck, buck meet bang....:first:

WOW! Awesome overlay. 10/10 I was so wrong about the Vargas kit and its potential. Just curious why it gets the shakes up top?

 

[ypena02]

Something else to consider is that a lot of people on this forum seem to be new(er) to turbo cars and even upgraded turbos. If I'd never driven anything but a stock car and then went to something the size of a 5862, it'd probably take some adjusting. However, that doesn't mean it's a crappy turbo. The best thing for people to do is just to install it and drive it around for a month or so. It's different from these small baby (stock) turbos, but I promise once you drive larger turbo cars, you'll loathe the stock turbo. I hate it. I'd give up a little spool anyday to have a much improved top end in the car.

x2! I come from the DSM community where slapping huge turbos on the 2.0L 4g63 is the norm lol I personally would not consider any of the turbos being discussed in this thread as laggy.

 

[Juben]

x2! I come from the DSM community where slapping huge turbos on the 2.0L 4g63 is the norm lol I personally would not consider any of the turbos being discussed in this thread as laggy.

Not to get off topic, but I have been and always will be a DSM guy at heart, lol. I had a 20G on my '90 GST (first 4g63 car that I built myself) and it was a handful of fun. Anyways, back to topic now.

 

[Scott Wilson]

Can we see a compressor map Vargas?

 

[Juben]

What size is the inducer/exducer on both sides? I'd like to know what size turbo it's equivalent to.

 

[VargasTurboTech]

WOW! Awesome overlay. 10/10 I was so wrong about the Vargas kit and its potential. Just curious why it gets the shakes up top?

We are not 100% sure, it has something to do with where you grab the tach signal from for the dyno. If you run the OBDII output to the dyno is mirror smooth. We ordered the OBDII output cable, and will dyno with that soon

 

[illeagle]

@Busser48 I have read the thread, as stated you are in general making passive aggressive attacks. Then you follow it up with "thats a legit question" This behavior is common on forums. I will say it again, this thread is for VTT S2 owners, and people wanting owners experience, asking general questions. You have posted over, and over, and over in this thread adding nothing. We ask you to please move along, if you do not have anything positive to contribute. If you do, then you are welcome to stay, and join the discussion. Thank you!

Thank you!!! I created this thread to have an informative discussion regarding this turbo, from owners with real world experience. I want people to be able to reference this thread and research if the turbo meets their goals and needs. It would be nice if a moderator could clean it up a bit.

 

[VargasTurboTech]

Can we see a compressor map Vargas?

Scott we had our wheels custom made to help avoid compressor surge in non-ported housings, etc. But the turbo as Adam alluded to is loosely based off of a Garrett GTX2971R 90 trim turbocharger. With a ton of changes made specific to this platform. So to compare apples to apples here.

The GTX2867R in its native housings is spooling the same as our much larger wheels, and not holding near the power up top. This turbocharger is a 100% success, and does everything we hoped, and more for a price point that is literally unbeatable.

To compare the maps below in terms people can understand at. At 29.4 psi 500+ BHP (about 425-440WHP) on the 71mm wheel you are still in the compressor efficiency island and still at 60% efficiency. For the 2867R at the same levels you are already well off the compressor map to the right meaning the turbo is completely our of its efficiency range, and essentially just heating the air at this point. Running a turbo far to the right of its compressor map is a good way to shorten its life expectancy dramatically. None of this information is ours, this is information directly from Garrett, and are not opinions. These are facts concluded by compressor testing done by Garrett. This means running your GTX2867R over 400WHP puts you at the FAR right of its compressor efficiency map, and is danagerously close to be outside of it. We would not suggest running more than say 420WHP on one for extended periods of time. This is why you see the power falling off so drastically up top, it shows the compressor falling out of its range. The GTX2867R is rated at 475BHP, so when the normal 15% conversion is done you get 404WHP. This is the max power Garrett recommends for this turbocharger.

Specs:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-4]* Compressor Wheel Inducer: 54.1mm
* Compressor Wheel Exducer: 71.4mm
* Compressor Wheel Trim: 58
* Turbine Wheel Inducer: 56.5mm
* Turbine Wheel Exducer: 53.6mm
* Turbine Wheel Trim: 90 [/SIZE][/FONT]

Compressor map is here:

GTX2867R Compressor map. As you can see, its not even close in terms of flow potential.

 

[ypena02]

Looks like the Vargas stage 2 is a lot more capable! Thanks for the data points!

 

[Scott Wilson]

Scott we had our wheels custom made to help avoid compressor surge in non-ported housings, etc. But the turbo as Adam alluded to is loosely based off of a Garrett GTX2971R 90 trim turbocharger. With a ton of changes made specific to this platform. So to compare apples to apples here.

The GTX2867R in its native housings is spooling the same as our much larger wheels, and not holding near the power up top. This turbocharger is a 100% success, and does everything we hoped, and more for a price point that is literally unbeatable.

To compare the maps below in terms people can understand at. At 29.4 psi 500+ BHP (about 425-440WHP) on the 71mm wheel you are still in the compressor efficiency island and still at 60% efficiency. For the 2867R at the same levels you are already well off the compressor map to the right meaning the turbo is completely our of its efficiency range, and essentially just heating the air at this point. Running a turbo far to the right of its compressor map is a good way to shorten its life expectancy dramatically. None of this information is ours, this is information directly from Garrett, and are not opinions. These are facts concluded by compressor testing done by Garrett. This means running your GTX2867R over 400WHP puts you at the FAR right of its compressor efficiency map, and is danagerously close to be outside of it. We would not suggest running more than say 420WHP on one for extended periods of time. This is why you see the power falling off so drastically up top, it shows the compressor falling out of its range.

Specs:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-4]* Compressor Wheel Inducer: 54.1mm
* Compressor Wheel Exducer: 71.4mm
* Compressor Wheel Trim: 58
* Turbine Wheel Inducer: 56.5mm
* Turbine Wheel Exducer: 53.6mm
* Turbine Wheel Trim: 90 [/SIZE][/FONT]

Compressor map is here:

GTX2867R Compressor map. As you can see, its not even close in terms of flow potential.

But this isnt your flow map this is for a different turbo. A bb turbo with different wheels and a different housing

 

[VargasTurboTech]

But this isnt your flow map this is for a different turbo. A bb turbo with different wheels and a different housing

Scott, we would not conduct testing for compressor maps. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is simply taking the closest wheel to ours, and using that map Garrett paid to have made. Our wheel inducer, and exducer sizes are identical. As far as housings throw that out the window, compressor map testing is done in a rig with no housing on the turbo. It is measuring compressor flow through the rigs dedicated flow meter. Also do not let people fool you with Compressor housing AR Mumbo Jumbo. Compressor housing size has the least effect of anything on a turbocharger. I can also post Garretts data points on this if you would like. Bottom line our turbo flat outflows the 2867R as the maps show, but more importantly the real world data shows it, by the dyno graphs posted. All while spooling the same. I think people were a little uninformed on the turbo previously so this helps to bring some perspective

 

[VargasTurboTech]

Just for reference Garrett's conclusions on Compressor AR, which is compressor housing size. If you actually read this, it shows smaller compressor covers are more suited to high boost environments which our platform is. A lot of turbocharger misinformation being posted, its time to clear it up with facts.

"Compressor A/R - Compressor performance is comparatively insensitive to changes in A/R. Larger A/R housings are sometimes used to optimize performance of low boost applications, and smaller A/R are used for high boost applications. However, as this influence of A/R on compressor performance is minor, there are not A/R options available for compressor housings."

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbine_housing_AR_and_housing_sizing

 

[perfweld]

But this isnt your flow map this is for a different turbo. A bb turbo with different wheels and a different housing

Scott, Do you have any idea how much it costs to do what your asking ? Not gonna happen. The reason BW and Garrett has compressor maps is they are a huge company and when the make a turbo, its a mass production unit. Any small company most likely will not have a compressor map made for them for a small production. I can only assume they will choose a wheel they have used in the past that has worked well in a similar situation, this goes for Vargas and most likely any small company. I would love a compressor map as you, but its just not gonna happen, and there is no need for it, we know whats going on with the turbo so we can back into compressor maps with our current results on the turbo, and the dimensions of the wheel.

 

[Scott Wilson]

Scott, we would not conduct testing for compressor maps. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is simply taking the closest wheel to ours, and using that map Garrett paid to have made. Our wheel inducer, and exducer sizes are identical. As far as housings throw that out the window, compressor map testing is done in a rig with no housing on the turbo. It is measuring compressor flow through the rigs dedicated flow meter. Also do not let people fool you with Compressor housing AR Mumbo Jumbo. Compressor housing size has the least effect of anything on a turbocharger. I can also post Garretts data points on this if you would like. Bottom line our turbo flat outflows the 2867R as the maps show, but more importantly the real world data shows it, by the dyno graphs posted. All while spooling the same. I think people were a little uninformed on the turbo previously so this helps to bring some perspective

I dont doubt your turbo will make power but taking my dyno that was done on a much lower reading dyno, in the middle of a TX summer and comparing it doesnt scream accuracy. Additionaly my dyno also did not source tach signal from the OBD2 port, it was sourced from the crank pulley. So the smoothness up top on my curve is legit.

I know its expensive to get a compressor map. When you said you worked with garret I wondered if they might have built this turbo. I look forward to see what your customer base does with these turbos. Too many companies out there fudge results that Im a little bitter TBH.

After going through two turbo setups I picked the GTX2867 by researching and comparing real world results on various platforms. I am the one that put together the first MAP/GTX2867r kit and now Adam sells a version of it.

I have no nut swinging loyalty to it as I put together a kit to reach my goals with the help of Adams tuning. I am skeptical of your spool data and % of power difference. I look forward to seeing customers results and I hope everything works out great for them and they are happy.

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