Understanding how bolt on parts make a difference without a tune

[J-chitown]

I'm a bit confused about the "bolt on" performance market and claims.


couple questions that might help me understand.

1. "Yes or No" Isn't the main purpose of the ECU to keep you in the "Ideal"
air to fuel ratio?

2. "Yes or No" on the stock Ecoboost is not the throttle body the most
restrictive part of the intake or the bottle neck?


I guess this is a good starting point and to some degree these are rhetorical questions with my present knowledge.

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[DynamiteBlues]

i'll bite..
1. I'm gonna go with "No" Of course the ECU has Several jobs, keeping at a targated A/F ratio is important for drivability & longevity. but really the ECU's control over 'timing' is just as important as A/F when talking power and drivability. The higher the octane the more timing the ECU can achieve without pre-detonation. This is how the stock ECU can make several ponies more on 93 than 87 even in bone stock form. like 25+ ponies!

2. No. With forced induction, it kind of throws the typical areas of improvement out the window. With out setup, the stock turbo and the intercooler are the worst bottlenecks. The stock turbo is beyond its efficiency with just a basic tune and blows hot air rather than the nice cool dense air out of a larger turbo at the same power level. Now that you know that, you can see how the stock intercooler can become so important to keeping that hot air in check. The stock intercooler can become heat soaked and loose power on even just one high gear high load pull. Hope some of that is helpful and makes sense, Cheers!

also to clarify since we are talking forced induction.. when i say bottleneck i'm referring to limiting factors to making more power, not the most physically restrictive part in the intake path. And after those two (Stock turbo & intercooler) I would say fuel becomes the next challenge.

 

[DynamiteBlues]

and to add on your initial thought.. most parts don't make a significant power gain without a tune. A tune will not only gain the most power with zero bolt on parts vs other parts, but it is an essential supporting mod that will ensure each bolt on that follows makes MORE power than it would have on the stock ECU mapping.

 

[Tune+]

Some parts can add power without a tune based on the factory parameters in the ECU. Here is a quick breakdown on why each make power, and they are in order of what I recommend from bolt ons first to last.

Intercooler - Intercooler can produce power gains without a tune because it allows the charge air to be cooled substantially over the factory unit. As charge air temp raises the factory ECU reduces timing. Less timing = less power. The other reason it makes power is because of the cool air entering the combustion chamber. The colder the air, the more power that can be made.

Catback - An increase in exhaust flow means the turbo can breath easier and it makes boost more efficiently. Most catbacks will give you an increase in boost of 1-2psi without any changes. However the ECU will try to block out any excess boost as it has limits set in place. The car will make about 18-19psi factory, the ecu allows up to 20.5psi. So if you increase boost with a bolt on, it will start closing the throttle body at 20.5psi. You will feel a substantial increase in torque during throttle closures because of the restriction. Restriction = torque.

Downpipe - Same exact reason as the exhaust. However I put the catback in front of the downpipe because the catback has more significant weight savings, and it also doesn't smell as much as a catted downpipe.

Intake - Intakes are at the bottom of the list because the gains are very minor after a tune. Without a tune you will get a small gain if the intake is sized properly. If you are looking for a cone filter style intake you will want to go with an intake that has a 3" tube. Anything bigger can cause "lag" and reduced torque. Remember what I said about restriction above? Intake swith BIG tubes that taper down to 2.25" to connect to the stock turbo work out well because of the smooth taper.

You have to put some thought into purchasing an intake in my opinion. Something with a huge tube and open element filter will net you a small gain in HP (1-2hp) around 4,500rpm and up. However you will sacrifice a lot of torque down low.

An intake like JLT/Roush has a good balance of both, they have a big tube that tapers down to the stock size inlet and has an open element filter (cone filter). It gives you the same gains up top, but a good bump in torque (10-25ft/lbs). They are made with plastic tubes as well which helps eliminate heat soak while sitting in traffic.

MAP intake is very simple has has a similar balance and is 3" from start to finish. It as well will give you the same gain in power up top, and torque down low. It is stainless as well which runs fairly cool during driving and during pulls. However sitting in traffic will cause a bit of heatsoak. Full-Race is 3" as well and includes a heatshield. I like the way they bring the filter back forward to face the factory cold air inlet like the factory box.

The Airaid intake has the most increase in torque out of all the intakes, but has very little peak horsepower gain. The torque comes from the fact it uses a closed box and has less open area around the filter that isn't as high flowing as an open element filter. Again restriction plays it's role, but don't take restriction negatively. If there were zero gains on HP and TQ then you would know it is TOO restrictive. However if the HP is consistent and the TQ is increased it is working as it should.

Intakes are at the bottom of the list based on a few reasons, the hp/tq increase. The annoying noise they produce with the factory BPV, and honestly because the factory intake works fairly well with a good drop in filter in it (Green filter is what I recommend).

With that all said, I will ALWAYS recommend a Tune and intercooler before any other modifications are done. So to recap, this is what you should be doing for modifications in order of most beneficial to lease beneficial.

Tuner (Accessport) with an E-tune>Intercooler>Actuator (requires E-tune)>Catback>Downpipe>Intake

 

[J-chitown]

i'll bite..
1. I'm gonna go with "No" Of course the ECU has Several jobs, keeping at a targated A/F ratio is important for drivability & longevity. but really the ECU's control over 'timing' is just as important as A/F when talking power and drivability. The higher the octane the more timing the ECU can achieve without pre-detonation. This is how the stock ECU can make several ponies more on 93 than 87 even in bone stock form. like 25+ ponies!

Good info's. I mean yaa I knew there was more involved but this is pretty concise regardless. Are you sure 25hp boost with the stock tune on 93. My research led me to think at the most 3-5% at the wheels and Im not sure but I think the mustang eco is already rated the hp with 93 in mind. Maybe that can be confirmed. What is the highest rated fuel the ECU can calculate with? or does it not work that way. For example if 89 to 93 is a claimed 25hp then what would 93 to 99 be?

2. No. With forced induction, it kind of throws the typical areas of improvement out the window. With out setup, the stock turbo and the intercooler are the worst bottlenecks. The stock turbo is beyond its efficiency with just a basic tune and blows hot air rather than the nice cool dense air out of a larger turbo at the same power level. Now that you know that, you can see how the stock intercooler can become so important to keeping that hot air in check. The stock intercooler can become heat soaked and loose power on even just one high gear high load pull. Hope some of that is helpful and makes sense, Cheers!

Ok so your saying if I did my fastest possible 1/4 mile with the stock tune/intercooler that the IC will basically be heat soaked and essentially If I did another 1/4 mile right after I would theoretically be slower (or over heat) due to less oxygen(hotter air, less dense)

also to clarify since we are talking forced induction.. when i say bottleneck i'm referring to limiting factors to making more power, not the most physically restrictive part in the intake path. And after those two (Stock turbo & intercooler) I would say fuel becomes the next challenge.

Although the first bottle neck in the intake is the throttle body correct?

 

[J-chitown]

Some parts can add power without a tune based on the factory parameters in the ECU. Here is a quick breakdown on why each make power, and they are in order of what I recommend from bolt ons first to last.

Intercooler - Intercooler can produce power gains without a tune because it allows the charge air to be cooled substantially over the factory unit. As charge air temp raises the factory ECU reduces timing. Less timing = less power. The other reason it makes power is because of the cool air entering the combustion chamber. The colder the air, the more power that can be made.

Catback - An increase in exhaust flow means the turbo can breath easier and it makes boost more efficiently. Most catbacks will give you an increase in boost of 1-2psi without any changes. However the ECU will try to block out any excess boost as it has limits set in place. The car will make about 18-19psi factory, the ecu allows up to 20.5psi. So if you increase boost with a bolt on, it will start closing the throttle body at 20.5psi. You will feel a substantial increase in torque during throttle closures because of the restriction. Restriction = torque.

Downpipe - Same exact reason as the exhaust. However I put the catback in front of the downpipe because the catback has more significant weight savings, and it also doesn't smell as much as a catted downpipe.

Intake - Intakes are at the bottom of the list because the gains are very minor after a tune. Without a tune you will get a small gain if the intake is sized properly. If you are looking for a cone filter style intake you will want to go with an intake that has a 3" tube. Anything bigger can cause "lag" and reduced torque. Remember what I said about restriction above? Intake swith BIG tubes that taper down to 2.25" to connect to the stock turbo work out well because of the smooth taper.

You have to put some thought into purchasing an intake in my opinion. Something with a huge tube and open element filter will net you a small gain in HP (1-2hp) around 4,500rpm and up. However you will sacrifice a lot of torque down low.

An intake like JLT/Roush has a good balance of both, they have a big tube that tapers down to the stock size inlet and has an open element filter (cone filter). It gives you the same gains up top, but a good bump in torque (10-25ft/lbs). They are made with plastic tubes as well which helps eliminate heat soak while sitting in traffic.

MAP intake is very simple has has a similar balance and is 3" from start to finish. It as well will give you the same gain in power up top, and torque down low. It is stainless as well which runs fairly cool during driving and during pulls. However sitting in traffic will cause a bit of heatsoak. Full-Race is 3" as well and includes a heatshield. I like the way they bring the filter back forward to face the factory cold air inlet like the factory box.

The Airaid intake has the most increase in torque out of all the intakes, but has very little peak horsepower gain. The torque comes from the fact it uses a panel filter that isn't as high flowing as an open element (cone) filter. Again restriction plays it's role, but don't take restriction negatively. If there were zero gains on HP and TQ then you would know it is TOO restrictive. However if the HP is consistent and the TQ is increased it is working as it should.

Intakes are at the bottom of the list based on a few reasons, the hp/tq increase. The annoying noise they produce with the factory BPV, and honestly because the factory intake works fairly well with a good drop in filter in it (Green filter is what I recommend).

With that all said, I will ALWAYS recommend a Tune and intercooler before any other modifications are done. So to recap, this is what you should be doing for modifications in order of most beneficial to lease beneficial.

Tuner (Accessport) with an E-tune>Intercooler>Actuator (requires E-tune)>Catback>Downpipe>Intake

Great info, I need to soak it up a bit. Just wanted to reply as you put a lot into the reply..:clap2::amen:

For the most part I get it,(your advice) what had me scratching my head was the
" So if you increase boost with a bolt on, it will start closing the throttle body at 20.5psi. You will feel a substantial increase in torque during throttle closures because of the restriction. Restriction = torque"

I get that the ECU will limit boost to 20.5 as you said but how that makes more torque is where I need a bit more explanation.

 

[Tamadrummer88]

Some parts can add power without a tune based on the factory parameters in the ECU. Here is a quick breakdown on why each make power, and they are in order of what I recommend from bolt ons first to last.

Intercooler - Intercooler can produce power gains without a tune because it allows the charge air to be cooled substantially over the factory unit. As charge air temp raises the factory ECU reduces timing. Less timing = less power. The other reason it makes power is because of the cool air entering the combustion chamber. The colder the air, the more power that can be made.

Catback - An increase in exhaust flow means the turbo can breath easier and it makes boost more efficiently. Most catbacks will give you an increase in boost of 1-2psi without any changes. However the ECU will try to block out any excess boost as it has limits set in place. The car will make about 18-19psi factory, the ecu allows up to 20.5psi. So if you increase boost with a bolt on, it will start closing the throttle body at 20.5psi. You will feel a substantial increase in torque during throttle closures because of the restriction. Restriction = torque.

Downpipe - Same exact reason as the exhaust. However I put the catback in front of the downpipe because the catback has more significant weight savings, and it also doesn't smell as much as a catted downpipe.

Intake - Intakes are at the bottom of the list because the gains are very minor after a tune. Without a tune you will get a small gain if the intake is sized properly. If you are looking for a cone filter style intake you will want to go with an intake that has a 3" tube. Anything bigger can cause "lag" and reduced torque. Remember what I said about restriction above? Intake swith BIG tubes that taper down to 2.25" to connect to the stock turbo work out well because of the smooth taper.

You have to put some thought into purchasing an intake in my opinion. Something with a huge tube and open element filter will net you a small gain in HP (1-2hp) around 4,500rpm and up. However you will sacrifice a lot of torque down low.

An intake like JLT/Roush has a good balance of both, they have a big tube that tapers down to the stock size inlet and has an open element filter (cone filter). It gives you the same gains up top, but a good bump in torque (10-25ft/lbs). They are made with plastic tubes as well which helps eliminate heat soak while sitting in traffic.

MAP intake is very simple has has a similar balance and is 3" from start to finish. It as well will give you the same gain in power up top, and torque down low. It is stainless as well which runs fairly cool during driving and during pulls. However sitting in traffic will cause a bit of heatsoak. Full-Race is 3" as well and includes a heatshield. I like the way they bring the filter back forward to face the factory cold air inlet like the factory box.

The Airaid intake has the most increase in torque out of all the intakes, but has very little peak horsepower gain. The torque comes from the fact it uses a panel filter that isn't as high flowing as an open element (cone) filter. Again restriction plays it's role, but don't take restriction negatively. If there were zero gains on HP and TQ then you would know it is TOO restrictive. However if the HP is consistent and the TQ is increased it is working as it should.

Intakes are at the bottom of the list based on a few reasons, the hp/tq increase. The annoying noise they produce with the factory BPV, and honestly because the factory intake works fairly well with a good drop in filter in it (Green filter is what I recommend).

With that all said, I will ALWAYS recommend a Tune and intercooler before any other modifications are done. So to recap, this is what you should be doing for modifications in order of most beneficial to lease beneficial.

Tuner (Accessport) with an E-tune>Intercooler>Actuator (requires E-tune)>Catback>Downpipe>Intake

Adam, what about the Airaid intake tube coupled with the stock airbox and a drop in filter? Is that a nice compromise for torque and hp?

 

[Tune+]

Great info, I need to soak it up a bit. Just wanted to reply as you put a lot into the reply..:clap2::amen:

For the most part I get it,(your advice) what had me scratching my head was the
" So if you increase boost with a bolt on, it will start closing the throttle body at 20.5psi. You will feel a substantial increase in torque during throttle closures because of the restriction. Restriction = torque"

I get that the ECU will limit boost to 20.5 as you said but how that makes more torque is where I need a bit more explanation.

Restriction = torque. The throttle body closing is a restriction.

 

[Tune+]

Adam, what about the Airaid intake tube coupled with the stock airbox and a drop in filter? Is that a nice compromise for torque and hp?

Should be solid, but honestly it is just like factory. It will look better and be smoother transfer.

 

[turtleboy]

tune, intercooler and catless dp will make anyone happy

 

[Tune+]

that works.

 

[EcoSwag1990]

The Airaid intake has the most increase in torque out of all the intakes, but has very little peak horsepower gain. The torque comes from the fact it uses a panel filter that isn't as high flowing as an open element (cone) filter.

Isn't the airaid CAI just a cone filter inside of a closed box

 

[Tune+]

Isn't the airaid CAI just a cone filter inside of a closed box

I was typing too fast, thank you for catch that I edited it. At the time I was thinking of the Airaid tube with the stock box.

 

[Hageln]

Intake - Intakes are at the bottom of the list because the gains are very minor after a tune. Without a tune you will get a small gain if the intake is sized properly. If you are looking for a cone filter style intake you will want to go with an intake that has a 3" tube. Anything bigger can cause "lag" and reduced torque. Remember what I said about restriction above? Intake swith BIG tubes that taper down to 2.25" to connect to the stock turbo work out well because of the smooth taper.

You have to put some thought into purchasing an intake in my opinion. Something with a huge tube and open element filter will net you a small gain in HP (1-2hp) around 4,500rpm and up. However you will sacrifice a lot of torque down low.

An intake like JLT/Roush has a good balance of both, they have a big tube that tapers down to the stock size inlet and has an open element filter (cone filter). It gives you the same gains up top, but a good bump in torque (10-25ft/lbs). They are made with plastic tubes as well which helps eliminate heat soak while sitting in traffic.

MAP intake is very simple has has a similar balance and is 3" from start to finish. It as well will give you the same gain in power up top, and torque down low. It is stainless as well which runs fairly cool during driving and during pulls. However sitting in traffic will cause a bit of heatsoak. Full-Race is 3" as well and includes a heatshield. I like the way they bring the filter back forward to face the factory cold air inlet like the factory box.

The Airaid intake has the most increase in torque out of all the intakes, but has very little peak horsepower gain. The torque comes from the fact it uses a closed box and has less open area around the filter that isn't as high flowing as an open element filter. Again restriction plays it's role, but don't take restriction negatively. If there were zero gains on HP and TQ then you would know it is TOO restrictive. However if the HP is consistent and the TQ is increased it is working as it should.

Intakes are at the bottom of the list based on a few reasons, the hp/tq increase. The annoying noise they produce with the factory BPV, and honestly because the factory intake works fairly well with a good drop in filter in it (Green filter is what I recommend).

With that all said, I will ALWAYS recommend a Tune and intercooler before any other modifications are done. So to recap, this is what you should be doing for modifications in order of most beneficial to lease beneficial.

Tuner (Accessport) with an E-tune>Intercooler>Actuator (requires E-tune)>Catback>Downpipe>Intake

So, given that I bought an intake that apparently doesn't mesh with these recommendations (MMR 3.5" pipe), is there some retrofitting action I should take with the pipe, or should I just not use it at all in your opinion?

 

[Tune+]

You can use it, but you are going to have some poor down low torque. It can be helped with a tune.

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