Science is now cancelled? [USERS NOW BANNED FOR POLITICS]

[GT Pony]

I hope the shots do not turn out to have bad outcomes, but see little reason for the naturally immune to take whatever risk there may be.

There's millions of dead people who probably wished they had a chance to get the vaccine, or wished they had made the decision to get one instead of not.

Seems you'll never understand risk mitigation nor understand the risk differences in this case. And yes you clearly come across as a vaxxed anti-vaxxer.

You still won't answer my question if you'd get vaccinated today if you weren't already. You afraid to tell the truth?

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[GT Pony]

Anyway we face risk each and every day. Some much worse than covid and the irony seems to be somehow all those other risks do not count so much any more.

If 700,000 people in the USA died in 18 months from ______ (fill in the blank) do you think it should be ignored, or should something try to be done about it. Or should it just be ignored because only a small percentage of the population died.

 

[GT Pony]

I'm assuming you have me on ignore, I did have CJJon on ignore for about a day then realized that is the cowards way out.

LoL, maybe you think getting vaccinated is "the cowards way out" too, and only "tough" people take the risk to just let their immune system fight it without any help. You might have an unexpected head-on crash, so you'd feel fine doing it with only a seat belt but with no airbag in conjunction to the belt - Ok, makes total sense. You might want to disable your airbad system.

 

[Gregs24]

Hello; he does not have me on ignore as he responded o my white road comments.
Your situation is perhaps the more confusing part of the general things going on in many countries and in particular on the thread. You had the virus and personally figure to have some level of immune protection. May be good protection. May be poor protection, but the risk is yours to accept. Odds are you will be OK.
Those with the shots such as myself have little to fear from you. Why you should be pressured into having a shot you very likely do not need is not so much based on the overall science as it seems to be more of a social judgement sort of thing.

Your decision to skip the shots because you figure to have natural immunity is backed up by many decades of understood knowledge about infections. Not an off the wall unsupported notion. I had the shots for my own reasons, one of which was I had not had and recovered from the virus and did not have natural immunity. I support your decision as being rational and very well considered. Somehow we both get painted with the social stigma of being anti-vaxx.

I took the shots because I am old and have co-morbidities. The overall risk of the infection was small for me at an estimated 5% of death at the time. Being old I decide to take the unknown risk of the shots. Hardly an anti-vaxx position. That i am not ready to stop questioning the safety of the shots is something not socially acceptable for many. Lines have been drawn and sides chosen. I hope the shots do not turn out to have bad outcomes, but see little reason for the naturally immune to take whatever risk there may be.

Demonstrating that you have not understood the benefit of vaccination even after having the disease. I have mentioned this before several times.

Study Suggests Lasting Immunity After COVID-19, With a Big Boost From Vaccination | Infectious Diseases | JAMA | JAMA Network

COVID-19 immunity: Natural infection compared to vaccination | British Society for Immunology

 

[Gregs24]

LoL, maybe you think getting vaccinated is "the cowards way out" too, and only "tough" people take the risk to just let their immune system fight it without any help. You might have an unexpected head-on crash, so you'd feel fine doing it with only a seat belt but with no airbag in conjunction to the belt - Ok, makes total sense. You might want to disable your airbad system.

Real men don't get vaccinated they just use guns and spears to fight it off, when they are not out driving their pink convertible that is

 

[sk47]

Moderna and BioNTech plummet more than 15% following news of Merck's COVID-19 antiviral pill | Markets Insider (businessinsider.com)

Hello; I hope this pill is not too costly. That said the various governments could do the same for it as was done for the shots. Make it approved for emergency use so it can be used soonest. Make it not subject to liability same as the shots so the makers cannot be sued. Pay for the pills same as the shots.
Lets see how these ideas play out on this thread.

 

[K4fxd]

Ok, makes total sense. You might want to disable your airbad system.

You are just a nut job.

LoL, maybe you think getting vaccinated is "the cowards way out" too,

What makes you think that? Oh I get it you just like stirring the pot

Demonstrating that you have not understood the benefit of vaccination even after having the disease. I have mentioned this before several times.

I don't care if it is 10% better if I get the jab too. I think any possible risk from the mRNA jab out weigh any benefit in my situation.

 

[sk47]

Demonstrating that you have not understood the benefit of vaccination even after having the disease. I have mentioned this before several times.

Study Suggests Lasting Immunity After COVID-19, With a Big Boost From Vaccination | Infectious Diseases | JAMA | JAMA Network

COVID-19 immunity: Natural infection compared to vaccination | British Society for Immunology

Hello; I have seen several links with a similar message. That a shot to the naturally immune gives benefits. I did some searching and found at least some of the reasoning behind the claims.
Posted the links and wrote quite a bit about it already.
The key advantage appears to to be the claim of the shot generates extra antibodies. Some virologist are keen on antibody numbers while others see the total immune system function as the better measure.
Since the more marketable aspect of the vaccines is a slightly high antibody count it makes sense to promote that if you are on board with the everybody must get the shot movement.
The total number of antibodies active at any one time is a part of immunity both natural and vaccine. The numbers will vary over time for both immunities. The key thing is how the body can make more antibodies as needed.
When we first get sick from a new virus without any immunity it starts a race between the damage the virus can do and our immune system getting up to speed. By the time our body can get up to speed in the fight the virus has many days to do damage. Sometimes we beat the virus on our own. Sometimes the virus does too much damage and we lose.

With both natural and shot immunity the next time we are infected with the same virus out bodies have a head start in the race. If it has been a while the active antibodies numbers can be reduced but there is a minimum number kept around. Those start on the invading virus right away. The body already has the plans in place to make new antibodies and makes new ones very much quicker than the first time.

I could see an advantage to extra shots for the naturally immune if the shots have been changed to match a mutated variety of the virus. But I found in my searching that some peculiar rule under the emergency authorization prevents any change in the formula of the shots. Very likely the vaccines are based on the sequencing information given out by the Chinese early on. That would be the gene sequence of a very early version of the virus. Such has been given as the reason the shots could be made so quickly. The had the genetic code of the virus already.

So someone who had the virus in the first wave likely had that variant of the virus ( alpha maybe). Same for the shots is my take. The shots were patterned on that early version. ( I leave some details out for this post) So my take is for someone with natural immunity to take the shot will be at most a short term increase in antibody numbers.

For me who had the shots and somehow am considered an anti-vaxxer the booster shots are much the same. A third shot will, by rule, have the exact same formulation as the two already taken. It might make sense if the third shot was changed to match the delta variant, but such is not the case.
The first two shots have primed my immune system. I may have some fewer antibodies six months later, but I will have some. My body can make more for an alpha virus. Might even help a little with delta. But that is another long post that you will likely dismiss since it does not help with the everybody get the shot designed for an alpha variant.
The virus is moving on while the shots are formulated for a variety mostly defeated by now. Explain that to me. Why not make some new shots to match delta? Change the rules.

 

[GT Pony]

You are just a nut job.

What makes you think that? Oh I get it you just like stirring the pot

LoL ... but not nearly as nutty as you. Sarcasm, too bad you and sk don't get it very well. But it obviously gets the point across, otherwise you wouldn't get triggered over it.

 

[GT Pony]

With both natural and shot immunity the next time we are infected with the same virus out bodies have a head start in the race. If it has been a while the active antibodies numbers can be reduced but there is a minimum number kept around. Those start on the invading virus right away. The body already has the plans in place to make new antibodies and makes new ones very much quicker than the first time.

When we first get sick from a new virus without any immunity it starts a race between the damage the virus can do and our immune system getting up to speed. By the time our body can get up to speed in the fight the virus has many days to do damage. Sometimes we beat the virus on our own. Sometimes the virus does too much damage and we lose.

You just made a great case for unvaccinated people to get "the jab". Bravo ...

I could see an advantage to extra shots for the naturally immune if the shots have been changed to match a mutated variety of the virus. But I found in my searching that some peculiar rule under the emergency authorization prevents any change in the formula of the shots. Very likely the vaccines are based on the sequencing information given out by the Chinese early on. That would be the gene sequence of a very early version of the virus. Such has been given as the reason the shots could be made so quickly. The had the genetic code of the virus already.

For me who had the shots and somehow am considered an anti-vaxxer the booster shots are much the same. A third shot will, by rule, have the exact same formulation as the two already taken. It might make sense if the third shot was changed to match the delta variant, but such is not the case.

You do realize that the current vaccine works well against the delta variant. Why do you think 90+% of the people who are in the hospitals with the delta variant are the unvaccinated vs a small percentage of people who are vaccinated? And that's why a booster will also increase immunity for people who have already had Covid. Every study says that ... even the beloved Israel studies.

 

[RPDBlueMoon]

Hello; I have seen several links with a similar message. That a shot to the naturally immune gives benefits. I did some searching and found at least some of the reasoning behind the claims.
Posted the links and wrote quite a bit about it already.
The key advantage appears to to be the claim of the shot generates extra antibodies. Some virologist are keen on antibody numbers while others see the total immune system function as the better measure.
Since the more marketable aspect of the vaccines is a slightly high antibody count it makes sense to promote that if you are on board with the everybody must get the shot movement.
The total number of antibodies active at any one time is a part of immunity both natural and vaccine. The numbers will vary over time for both immunities. The key thing is how the body can make more antibodies as needed.
When we first get sick from a new virus without any immunity it starts a race between the damage the virus can do and our immune system getting up to speed. By the time our body can get up to speed in the fight the virus has many days to do damage. Sometimes we beat the virus on our own. Sometimes the virus does too much damage and we lose.

That's actually not really true. Measuring antibodies is only the end result of an immune response and doesn't tell the whole story. The reason why vaccines are considered to be better than natural immunity is because that after an infection the memory t-cells are not specific only to that pathogen, they exhibit cross reactivity. This is why I mentioned that an infection increases the chances of you having a heart attack, and why COVID facilitates comorbidities, having more longer term implications. Infections can cause auto immune diseases like Guillain-Barré syndrome as a complication because of this (there are reported cases of people getting it from the vaccine, as well as people who had COIVD. The cases are much lower from the vaccine because of the decreased cross reactivity). The immune system is a double edged sword. The memory t-cells that your body makes after a vaccine are specific and exhibit no cross reactivity so you don't produce extra junk that is useless, it is specific only to the genetic sequence of the epitope of the antigen which in theory makes for a far more efficient and faster response.. With natural immunity its not specific and the immune system elicits a response to antigens with different epitopes.

The discussion is more complicated. Specific epitopes of the flu are corelated with higher TCR cross reactivity than others. It's not really just a matter of measuring antibodies, thats just the end result, thats a huge oversimplification because I only discussed T-cells. B-cells are what make the antibodies

 

[GT Pony]

The immune system is a double edged sword.

To add ... in some cases of Covid the natural immune system can overreact and kill the body while trying to kill the virus.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...rreacts-in-patients-with-severe-COVID-19.aspx

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/02/210223110452.htm

Lots of articles about it:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=natural+immune+system+over+reaction+to+covid

 

[RPDBlueMoon]

To add ... in some cases of Covid the natural immune system can overreact and kill the body while trying to kill the virus.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...rreacts-in-patients-with-severe-COVID-19.aspx

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/02/210223110452.htm

Lots of articles about it:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=natural+immune+system+over+reaction+to+covid

The idea of antibodies, t-ceils and b-cells and basically what I just described is adaptive immunity. Innate immunity is the first response to the immune system and doesn't really involve the production of antibodies.

So the researchers suggest that its most likely the tissue damage that causes the overreaction. The innate immune cells must think that there is some type of tumor or something really bad so it goes haywire. Interesting, I wonder if thats the reason behind the rare blood clotting deaths from the J&J vaccine. Its really hard to do a molecular autopsy on someone to figure out what really happened when they died when it comes to this stuff.

 

[sk47]

You just made a great case for unvaccinated people to get "the jab". Bravo ... .

Hello; I have not been writing about the unvaccinated.

 

[sk47]

That's actually not really true. Measuring antibodies is only the end result of an immune response and doesn't tell the whole story. The reason why vaccines are considered to be better than natural immunity is because that after an infection the memory t-cells are not specific only to that pathogen, they exhibit cross reactivity. This is why I mentioned that an infection increases the chances of you having a heart attack, and why COVID facilitates comorbidities, having more longer term implications. Infections can cause auto immune diseases like Guillain-Barré syndrome as a complication because of this (there are reported cases of people getting it from the vaccine, as well as people who had COIVD. The cases are much lower from the vaccine because of the decreased cross reactivity). The immune system is a double edged sword. The memory t-cells that your body makes after a vaccine are specific and exhibit no cross reactivity so you don't produce extra junk that is useless, it is specific only to the genetic sequence of the epitope of the antigen which in theory makes for a far more efficient and faster response.. With natural immunity its not specific and the immune system elicits a response to antigens with different epitopes.

The discussion is more complicated. Specific epitopes of the flu are corelated with higher TCR cross reactivity than others. It's not really just a matter of measuring antibodies, thats just the end result, thats a huge oversimplification because I only discussed T-cells. B-cells are what make the antibodies

Hello; I was not writing about those who are ill from covid and have serious illness and/or death. My comments have been about those who had covid and recovered on their own. In particular the need for such people to have a vaccine on top of natural immunity.

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