No Second Gear Fun?

[NewfoundFordFan]

I believe the car is pulling the throttle because youre on the brakes. It thinks youre trying to stop.

It's a safety measure that a ton of cars have now after the Prius debacle.

Thats what I figured. But itll do whatever i want in first. Must be a 1st gear lockout or a speed cap

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[Eritas]

I soon found out. especially an ej255. junk. When I was quoted 9 grand just to make the car reliable(ish), plus another 3 grand to get to 500 wheel i lost it. Was looking at ss camaros when this beaut came in on trade. Drove it and it was a no brainer, plus half the cost. Idk i just want to make it "my build" not just some out of the box upgrade that the average joe does on the weekends. I spent a couple years building dirt bike engines before I switched to automotive tech. Definitely more expensive to experiment but it's just what i enjoy. I like to play with the internals for sure. compression ratios, different cams, stuff like that. basically, if the kit alone makes +200hp, I want to know what else does what. e85 doesnt exist around here so thats out the window

Going from about 400whp to 800-1000 is a 400-600whp gain from the "kit". Not 200hp.

You don't need to do any head or cam work, and may find out they are not necessary due to the already aggressive factory cams. Anything aftermarket may be more ideal for NA and cause problems with forced induction.

Why reinvent the wheel with cams when the stock block can get you twice the power you were hoping for in your boobaru.

 

[NewfoundFordFan]

Going from about 400whp to 800-1000 is a 400-600whp gain from the "kit". Not 200hp.

You don't need to do any head or cam work, and may find out they are not necessary due to the already aggressive factory cams. Anything aftermarket may be more ideal for NA and cause problems with forced induction.

Why reinvent the wheel with cams when the stock block can get you twice the power you were hoping for in your boobaru.

Correct, research with time will tell. I dont foresee a 727hp kit (assuming crank) making what it says. And if you figure 20% drivetrain loss thats high 5s at the wheels if my elementary grade education serves me right. Lol. Im not degrading it, I've been searching for that 500whp number for 4 years now on 2 different builds. Whether its running meth injection or pulling the motor, only time will tell.
Edit* the stage 1 kits state 50-60 hp gain. That's where I got 200 from

 

[Eritas]

Correct, research with time will tell. I dont foresee a 727hp kit (assuming crank) making what it says. And if you figure 20% drivetrain loss thats high 5s at the wheels if my elementary grade education serves me right. Lol. Im not degrading it, I've been searching for that 500whp number for 4 years now on 2 different builds. Whether its running meth injection or pulling the motor, only time will tell.
Edit* the stage 1 kits state 50-60 hp gain. That's where I got 200 from

Who said 727hp?

You might want to do a little research. 800-1,000whp as in "WHEEL" horsepower, on Whipple Gen 3 superchargers is common.

What's really impressive is that 2018 GTs are making 500whp with just a tune and E85.

 

[NewfoundFordFan]

Who said 727hp?

You might want to do a little research. 800-1,000whp as in "WHEEL" horsepower, on Whipple Gen 3 superchargers is common.

What's really impressive is that 2018 GTs are making 500whp with just a tune and E85.

I've been looking at numbers on 15 gts just intake and lth/catback on 93. looking like 440-450 wheel. new mani, clean up the heads a bit, be a nice n/a machine if you ask me.
I've heard 750-800 crank limitations on these factory 5.0s. especially if it's going to see the track, which is the plan. oil pump gear failures are more common above the 800 mark. going upwards of 1000 wheel doesnt sound like a good idea. doable for sure, but i've heard that song before. And regardless of how well oiled the bottom of the pistons are, in regards to a car I tend to work fairly hard, im no fan of any piston thats not forged. And I haven't even glanced at drivetrain limitations yet. I have a hard time believing the factory rdu can handle that much tq, but you never know, fords impressed me so far.
I enjoy playing with the geometry of engines. not just grinding off casting marks and saying my heads are ported, but digging down to the more detailed side of things. Of course it was more enjoyable when it was one 500$ cam instead of 4.
it's not how much horsepower you make, its how much you havent found yet.

 

[texasboy21]

If you think you can work over a set of heads better than a team of engineers with likely millions in engine R&D, and limitless "access" to all production and ECU architecture by all means go for it.

Fact is, the engine (heads, cams, and all) is well built and capable of producing a lot more power than factory with the right combo of parts and tuning.

 

[NoVaGT]

Is there anybody else having problems getting wild in second gear?........So im at a loss, any ideas?

I'm wondering how comfortable financially you are to be looking at replacing your clutch, tires, etc. all the time.

 

[NewfoundFordFan]

If you think you can work over a set of heads better than a team of engineers with likely millions in engine R&D, and limitless "access" to all production and ECU architecture by all means go for it.

Fact is, the engine (heads, cams, and all) is well built and capable of producing a lot more power than factory with the right combo of parts and tuning.

Youre talking two entirely different directions here. They were built well for the initial design. 11.0-1 is high for forced induction. The 5.0 was not designed for such, but clearly can handle it with the right tuning. There's a reason performance parts are out there, it's built well, but you can always build it better. its well known these motors are choked on the top end. simply opening up the airflow will net just as much gain as bolt on goodies sometimes.

 

[NewfoundFordFan]

I'm wondering how comfortable financially you are to be looking at replacing your clutch, tires, etc. all the time.

guess we will see if i learn my lesson the first time

 

[Eritas]

I've been looking at numbers on 15 gts just intake and lth/catback on 93. looking like 440-450 wheel.

I have Power Pack 3 and should be around 420-425whp with stock headers. Removing cats/LTH should give you maybe another 10whp to put you at the 430-435whp mark on 93. If you keep the stock intake manifold, take off about 10whp from those numbers.

I've heard 750-800 crank limitations on these factory 5.0s. especially if it's going to see the track, which is the plan. oil pump gear failures are more common above the 800 mark. going upwards of 1000 wheel doesnt sound like a good idea. doable for sure, but i've heard that song before. And regardless of how well oiled the bottom of the pistons are, in regards to a car I tend to work fairly hard, im no fan of any piston thats not forged.

I've SEEN 800whp supercharged 5.0s go to the drag strip. Well, I don't usually go because I like road courses, but I know guys who run that much power with no issues. At those levels, upgraded OPGs are a really good idea and should be done rather than the head/cam work you've been talking about.

And I haven't even glanced at drivetrain limitations yet.

That's because the limitations of the 6R80 and MT82 are much higher than what you're probably going to throw at it.

I have a hard time believing the factory rdu can handle that much tq, but you never know, fords impressed me so far.

You mean the 8.8 Diff? Or do you now have a Focus RS with a "RDU"?

I enjoy playing with the geometry of engines. not just grinding off casting marks and saying my heads are ported, but digging down to the more detailed side of things. Of course it was more enjoyable when it was one 500$ cam instead of 4.
it's not how much horsepower you make, its how much you havent found yet.

You like changing the bank angles of the block? The orientations of the crank?

The Gen 2 coyote heads already have a lot of the geometry of the CNC machined Boss 302 heads cast into it. Give this a read:

https://www.fordnxt.com/news/why-the-second-gen-coyote-engine-trumps-the-first/

You might be able to get 10-20whp from a set of cams by shifting the powerband up, and losing 10-20whp down low and in the mid-range. I don't know of many people who bother spending $1,500+ for cams + install ($2-3K out the door) when they plan on sinking $6K+ into a supercharger. This isn't your rice burner or a crappy motor, the Coyote flows like two Honda K24s bolted together, vs your atrocious EJ that can't do anything right. I'd either focus on going NA and do the appropriate supporting mods, or plan on FI and buy parts accordingly. Cams probably aren't part of that equation.

Youre talking two entirely different directions here. They were built well for the initial design. 11.0-1 is high for forced induction. The 5.0 was not designed for such, but clearly can handle it with the right tuning. There's a reason performance parts are out there, it's built well, but you can always build it better. its well known these motors are choked on the top end. simply opening up the airflow will net just as much gain as bolt on goodies sometimes.

Get out of your crappy engine world. 11:1 is not bad with FI when you have a good flowing head, and you can make a TON of power when you have good fuel (race or E85). You don't need an inefficient turd of 9:1 for FI. Hell, guys are still making 800-1,000whp on 12:1 Gen 3 Coyotes.

 

[NewfoundFordFan]

I've SEEN 800whp supercharged 5.0s go to the drag strip. Well, I don't usually go because I like road courses, but I know guys who run that much power with no issues. At those levels, upgraded OPGs are a really good idea and should be done rather than the head/cam work you've been talking about.
Get out of your crappy engine world. 11:1 is not bad with FI when you have a good flowing head, and you can make a TON of power when you have good fuel (race or E85). You don't need an inefficient turd of 9:1 for FI. Hell, guys are still making 800-1,000whp on 12:1 Gen 3 Coyotes.

Congrats on the numbers
I've read about 3 stock builds that net over 800whp, the highest one being 930 on e85, they didn't last long. not just mechanical failures, catastrophic failures.
As to your comment on lowering compression, why do they make a 5.0 yote 9.5-1 crate motor for supercharged applications? just for a good laugh? It's common knowledge if you start playing with high boost numbers a lower ratio is helpful. regardless of its necessity
Highly respected names in this industry have even stated pushing your 5.0 more than 750 CRANK without taking necessary precautions is playing with the devil.
Its not that i dont trust ya, its that i trust other more reputable sources more, sorry.

 

[Eritas]

Congrats on the numbers
I've read about 3 stock builds that net over 800whp, the highest one being 930 on e85, they didn't last long. not just mechanical failures, catastrophic failures.
As to your comment on lowering compression, why do they make a 5.0 yote 9.5-1 crate motor for supercharged applications? just for a good laugh? It's common knowledge if you start playing with high boost numbers a lower ratio is helpful. regardless of its necessity
Highly respected names in this industry have even stated pushing your 5.0 more than 750 CRANK without taking necessary precautions is playing with the devil.
Its not that i dont trust ya, its that i trust other more reputable sources more, sorry.

Go to the track down here in s.florida. Not everyone with a supercharged car is a forum worrior. There are far more than 3 800who stock block cars running around.

If you lower the compression, you need a smaller pulley and more boost. If you have good fuel, you don't NEED as much boost to make the same power (and will run cooler than heating up the intake charge with more boost). If you don't want to run e85 or race gas, you'll need lower compression to make the same power.

I prefer to listen to the guys who are at the track setting records and not blowing up (and have them work on my car), rather than being afraid from listening to people on forums who are blowing their motors up due to poor tunes/builds. But do what makes you comfortable. You may not want to have your car tuned by people who are blowing motors up and making less power than other shops are able to do all day long.

 

[NewfoundFordFan]

Go to the track down here in s.florida. Not everyone with a supercharged car is a forum worrior. There are far more than 3 800who stock block cars running around.

If you lower the compression, you need a smaller pulley and more boost. If you have good fuel, you don't NEED as much boost to make the same power (and will run cooler than heating up the intake charge with more boost). If you don't want to run e85 or race gas, you'll need lower compression to make the same power.

I prefer to listen to the guys who are at the track setting records and not blowing up (and have them work on my car), rather than being afraid from listening to people on forums who are blowing their motors up due to poor tunes/builds. But do what makes you comfortable. You may not want to have your car tuned by people who are blowing motors up and making less power than other shops are able to do all day long.

food for thought, and this is the highest rated stock block capability ive seen so far.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-...coyote-block-for-big-horsepower-applications/

 

[NewfoundFordFan]

but that does reinstate your 800whp claim, so ill buy it. Only from the sideline though
Edit* the biggest advantage to going to a lower compression ratio is (I believe) to advance timing (limit timing retard), not to add more boost. Theres a formula to follow that I believe involved degree timing advance/psi at given ratio and fuel content. Again, don't quote me on this.

 

[Eritas]

food for thought, and this is the highest rated stock block capability ive seen so far.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-...coyote-block-for-big-horsepower-applications/

That was a Gen 1 Coyote. Gen 2s like ours have better heads, flow better, and make more power easier.

It's all a balance of boost, timing, compression and knock resistance. Coming from an import tuner background, I can understand how some of this may be hard to believe, but the Coyote is pretty darn impressive.

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