Mustang S550 platform vs Camaro Alpha

[JohnZiraldo]

I am confident that Ford will continue to drive more power out of the Coyote and Ecoboost in order to stay ahead of Camaro, but what about platform performance?

This article from last year about the Cadillac ATS on the Alpha platform, suggests what the competition will look like for S550.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2012-bmw-328i-vs-2013-cadillac-ats-comparison-test

Looking forward to learning more about how Ford will pull this off....and I am sure they will.

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[S550Boss]

It's very simple: on the Ford side you have an evolved S197, about which we understand many of the major hard points.

On the GM side you have a brand new platform, sharing nothing with the past, purpose-built to save weight and designed using a gram strategy. And that platform already has a variety of engines, the electric diff from the C7, magnetorheological shocks ... and a variety of modern transmissions (with a dual clutch coming most likely). To build a particular Camaro model, you just remove 2 doors, pick your wheelbase and track, and then pick from these parts. You will then have a Camaro that benefits from sharing parts with the rest of the users and can be built at a Camaro price point because it can share all of this engineering with other higher-margin cars. And it will be *very* light - the weight difference between the Camaro and Mustang that provides a major benefit to the Mustang right now will be gone. The Camaro could - might - end up even lighter than the Mustang when both are in their 4-cylinder forms.

And then you have the engines. On the GM side you have the 460 HP 450 tq LT1, with lots of "area under the curve", cylinder shut off for excellent fuel economy, and most likely the (bulletproof) Tremac 7-speed. On the Ford side you have a standard GT engine that will rev faster and will be more fun to drive across the rev range than an LT1, but will not have the torque (even if it gets DI, which hasn't been confirmed, it will still be down 30-40 tq). It will have to be a considerable step-up from the Boss engine to be competitive against the LT1. And remember, these are standard V-8 engines, not the special editions.

Then there are the high-end special models for each... Ford with an unknown engine (lots of rumors there and not a single hard fact), and GM with a supercharged V-8 (paid for by Caddy and the Corvette budgets), and maybe a large displacement engine in between their standard V-8 and the supercharged engine (as in Z07).

We're seeing already that Ford is paying a lot of attention to interior design, making a major improvement over the crude and dated ergonomics of the current car. And loading it up with optional electronics. In 2015, when the Mustang has to compete against the current old Camaro (with it's terrible interior), there will be a huge advantage to the Mustang in interior design and options. For one model year. GM, on the other hand, designs far different interiors now than they did when they designed the current Camaro.

So the competition is on, at least in late 2015 when the truly all-new Camaro is born.

Now I'll go out on a limb, beyond what is known. All the above is known and are hard facts that we will have to deal with. IMHO, this is why in my "educated speculation" chart I created several months ago for the 2015 and up Mustang, I added special features to get ahead of and differentiate from what we already know about the Alpha platform. I added an off-the-shelf ZF torque proportioning differential for special editions. This would compete against the electronic diff that the C7 and the new CTS share, which will certainly be an option on the high-end Camaros. Ford doesn't have the engineering budget or skillsets to create such a diff itself, but ZF has one on the shelf that several manufacturers already use. Thanks to the new standard across-the-board IRS, this could be easily engineered - although the software that controls it would take some major effort. So this would be a differentiator.
Then there are engines. The current Shelby GT500 engine, heavy and dated as it is (no cam timing, no DI, for example), fits in the S550 because the engine compartment is almost identical, with the same spacing between the shock towers (only differing in the cut-backs for the lights). The bills were paid for this engine, it makes sense to keep it for a few years. That's a differentiator (even though the supercharged ZL1 replacement will likely make more HP and tq when it comes out).
Then there is a potential replacement for the Boss, which itself was a major differentiator. The current Camaro easily has a far better chassis than the Boss in it's own track models (2), and their high-end model has a 7-liter engine Ford can't match (and a price point far in excess of the Boss). A new Boss-type product would be an easier differentiator because Ford can, if it wants to, keep the price point down against the Camaro's own track model while offering an engine a cut above what a similarly priced Camaro can offer. So this could be a differentiator... unless the GT350 (or whatever it is called, since it's name and engine are an unknown) is loaded with options and costs upwards of 60k - and is highly marked up by dealers again. So the right track-focused model here would be a major differentiator.

I also reasoned out a special model that I called the "Grande" for lack of a current name. This is just what it was originally, a more comfortable model for people who want the style of a Mustang, loaded with options, but who do not want a GT model (or likely a V-8). More luxury, more economical. This could have it's own engine (because more all-new engines are coming down the pipeline), or it could just focus on interior appointments and leave the engine choice to the buyer. Like the original Grande, it has to have differentiating features. Keep in mind that there has been a strong move in this direction over the past several years with lower-end non-GT models getting more and better options - which significantly increase the appeal of the car and significantly increase sales. Ford understood a long time ago that the GT model alone doesn't sell the car in sufficient numbers to make the required profit (and to have the financial justification to reinvest). And a contest was held to design this type of model which premiered at SEMA. So whether it ends up as a separate model or not, this is the trend of Mustang option buying and the current Camaro doesn't doesn't much play here. So this could be a differentiator.

These types of differentiators would get better press than the Camaro, and make up for the older and less-capable chassis of the S550.

There is also the "early bird gets the worm" factor. The Mustang comes out first, so has the opportunity to build a lead in momentum first. And if it has a special edition from day 1 (or nearly), a special edition that is very thoroughly thought out and significant in engineering, that is just that much more momentum. It's interesting to me that the special edition model we've been seeing is in an advanced stage of testing. It's running around just like the other prototypes, the suspension tuning is obviously done, That makes me think it isn't a 2016 as the magazines think, but that it will be out just a few months after the base car or even earlier. This is one way the Mustang can get ahead and maybe stay ahead.

 

[JohnZiraldo]

...
On the GM side you have a brand new platform, sharing nothing with the past, purpose-built to save weight and designed using a gram strategy.
...

This article from 2011 suggests that the current Alpha platform is anything but a clean sheet design for Camaro.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...-problems-compromise-haunt-gm-alpha-platform/

It would appear from the ATS vs. BMW article that GM did a good(if you ignore the large drill holes) job of sorting out the issues in this article, but I would suggest that Ford's platform engineers could be equally capable of evolving a competitive platform from earlier technology.

 

[S550Boss]

That article is old news and dated... lots of angst internally as they defined the mission for the Alpha, what engines it could use, what would become of Zeta (and Australia), etc. No wonder.

And it's not a "clean sheet for the Camaro", it's a clean sheet for the basic platform which is then used for ATS, CTS, Camaro, _______. The Camaro can't justify it's own orphan platform.

Sure. Ford engineers could create a brand new platform to compete with the Alpha... but the haven't and there isn't enough justification to do so right now. Hence the warmed-up S197 aka S550.
And the last two times they did it, MN12 and DEW98, they couldn't afford to build it - given the methods in use at the time.

 

[thePill]

That article is old news and dated... lots of angst internally as they defined the mission for the Alpha, what engines it could use, what would become of Zeta (and Australia), etc. No wonder.

And it's not a "clean sheet for the Camaro", it's a clean sheet for the basic platform which is then used for ATS, CTS, Camaro, _______. The Camaro can't justify it's own orphan platform.

Sure. Ford engineers could create a brand new platform to compete with the Alpha... but the haven't and there isn't enough justification to do so right now. Hence the warmed-up S197 aka S550.
And the last two times they did it, MN12 and DEW98, they couldn't afford to build it - given the methods in use at the time.

Actually, word is the S550 is unique to the Mustang (right now), it is not an S197...

I can't even begin to tell you how much of the original chassis efficiency is lost when the platform is handed down. It is compromise from the very start. I will also point out, just with the current Alpha's chassis's Sled Runners, it will not support a V8 with it's small runners. The ATS was designed to be a chassis that supported a turbo 4, major support will be needed...

I need to asked this, what components of the S197 platform and chassis do you anticipate will migrate to the S550?

 

[JohnZiraldo]

Another question regards the fact that S550 is committed to being a worldwide platform. Was S197 so close to a worldwide standard that it only needed to be tweaked?

In an article about the GM Alpha platform, it was stated that the Alpha was not designed with European standards or with the involvement of European engineers. The S550 obviously has been. What could that mean if true? Would Alpha for example have to gain weight from strengthening in order to be exported? :shrug:

 

[GTsquid]

Another question regards the fact that S550 is committed to being a worldwide platform. Was S197 so close to a worldwide standard that it only needed to be tweaked?

In an article about the GM Alpha platform, it was stated that the Alpha was not designed with European standards or with the involvement of European engineers. The S550 obviously has been. What could that mean if true? Would Alpha for example have to gain weight from strengthening in order to be exported? :shrug:

This is a great point. Developed years before 2004, the S197 platform did not have any consideration for international regulations you can assume. The whole point of these global platforms is that developing a separate European/Aussie/Asian version is too costly to justify the low volume. To develop one platform/version that can be used everywhere would HAVE to mean some significant changes to the S197 I would assume.

Anyone familiar with these global requirements and how extensive the current one would need to be modified to meet them? Not to get too off-topic but as John suggested, but it does tie in with whether the Alpha would need similar modifications as well for global use.

 

[S550Boss]

There are a bunch of worldwide regulations that the S550 has to account for, especially rollover and crash standards which are very different worldwide. And they have changed considerably since the 2005 or the 2010 update. And now there are also the pedestrian impact regulations that Europe has pioneered. These effect engine placement, hood height, styling, and much more. There is a paper here to read: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv19/05-0304-W.pdf .

All of this is expensive, and not at all easy given all the worldwide standards (sometimes overlapping, often not), and it's another reason why the fast path to the 2015 meant evolving the current S197 chassis rather than spending years trying to justify an all-new platform that may well not be used by any other product now or ever (a Lincoln on it is a myth right now, as far as is known externally, no matter how much we might want one - and a Falcon on it had died completely). Remember that One Ford says a platform will be engineered and can used worldwide (and there is certainly some market worldwide for the Mustang); it doesn't mean that there actually WILL BE other cars built off the same platform.

Getting back to the point of the thread, here is a comparison chart of the 2015 Mustang versus the 2016 Camaro. Read the disclaimers and follow the instructions.

And, according to GM, the Alpha was developed from the start for worldwide markets. Indeed, that was a crucial part of their plan from the start. And GM decided to invest the time and money to do it right. There will be three cars offered on Alpha, each benefiting form the others, and the Camaro befitting from the higher-margin cars paying the big parts of the development budget. And it's also there should Buick get serious again.

And according to the inside chroniclers, the development of the Alpha wasn't easy or without controversy. They changed their minds back and forth whether it would be able to handle a V-8 given a doomsday view of fuel economy regs. But in the end they accepted that it would, and now they've announced that the Camaro will not only be built on Alpha but will be built in the same plant as the CTS (the Canadians are mad, but then that country is right now the most expensive place to produce a car in the Americas thanks to their militant union). Remember you don't need much room for the current V-8, it'll even fit in a Miata and weigh less than the original 1.8 liter. Also remember that the Alpha is designed for varying lengths and width to accommodate various uses. And the V-8 in the CTS is well-known to be under way.

Will Lincoln follow this lead with the less-capable S550, or should I say CAN Lincoln do it? Do they even know if they want to do it? And would they know how to sell it if they did? One can well imagine a sharp looking and capable rear wheel drive Lincoln, maybe on the order of this Volvo (which was just approved for production), this hi-perf Lincoln LS concept (which was already based on a world-class production car which they didn't know how to sell), or especially this handsome 4-door Lincoln (which was fully intended for production and which BTW was built off an S197 and featured the IRS that was originally designed for the S197). Too bad about Lincoln... they had a series of fabulous concepts before Little Billy Ford decided he could run a car company and cancelled all of the plans Jacques Nasser had in place (including a next-gen DEW98 and further use of that platform for both a smaller and a larger car). Now, years later, we still have the ruins of Lincoln, without an MKR or even a Mark coupe, and no platform sharing benefits.

 

[thePill]

There really isn't much you can share between the S197 and S550, I wouldn't consider it an evolved S197 even if it used all the possible interchangeable parts.

The S197's structure and platform go against everything Ford's SI stands for. The S197 will not evolve beyond 2014. The S197 has a torque box, the S550 will use Ford's new S and Y brace. The rear platform of the S550 and S197 have to be completely different to accommodate ILIRS. The engine cradles are completely different... I can't see an evolution of a previous platform there...

As for the Alpha, it is not ready for V8 duty. You need to look at the sled runners in the base chassis. Also, I believe the Alpha still uses a torque box so, the sleds and rockers will be similar to what is on the Sigma now.

Once the Alpha platform gets the proper reinforcement for a V8, it will be a different story. Alpha platform is a 4 cylinder platform, that is a compromise right off the bat.

I would say, whatever Ford started testing in 2007 will likely spawn a smaller version of what ever is under this... The S550 development began in 2008....

 

[thePill]

I will say this though, both GM and Ford (rumored) to have killed the Large platform. GM in 2009, it was rumored Ford had as well. I think large platforms, like the Zeta and DC2 are going bye bye... It's better to build a specific compact platform or mid-size. This is the issue with the Alpha going to a Camaro. The main reason is, the platform is considered a compact/mid-size chassis. You can tell by the very small sled runners (in drab blue) under the drivers floor. That is relativity small, it can support you Turbo 4 and maybe V6.

I believe Ford decided to use a smal mid-size platform specifically engineered for the S550 Mustang. It is not an evolved DC2 (S197) nor is it a heavily fabricated CD4... I believe Ford dropped the R&D on the large (D) platforms, will merge those FWD D cars into the new global CD class and possibly spawn a large RWD sedan or Lincoln coupe from the S550. GM dropped their Large platform plans in 2009, they started the Alpha soon after that. It was rumored Ford dropped their plans of a large platform about a year or two after the Interceptor Concept... Fuel economy demands, weight and cost where probably the down fall. This leaves Ford to make a Regional RWD platform (like the F150) but still sell overseas. They likely started work on the new S550 platform shortly after GM started the Alpha in 2009.

 

[thePill]

Look at the motor mounts, it's a basic 4 cylinder setup, major changes need to be made to accommodate a V6, even in this picture here.

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