GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

...and, Ford said the 2015 GTPP was 1.5 seconds faster than the Boss 302 at Gratten so... I'm assuming the Boss has very little advantage over the Brembo GT at Gratten, maybe 1/2 a second. I can imagine Ford shot for the M3's lap time of 1:30 at the same track...

I don't understand how a driver can pound away at Gratten in a 1LE yet still only best a 1:31.47. With 700 miles of seat time... That's 350 laps in one car, at one track, by one driver... who also held the track record from 2005 to 2010...




Edit: FYI, the 2011 GT C&D used had 14/11.9 rotors, 255's all around and may have been a Premium. It had the touchscreen and was not 401a interior. No Recaro seats...

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[Dropspeed]

Okay, that guy ran a 1:31.47 at Gratten in a 1LE. That is a very good time for an NA car for that price. The E92 was a 1:30.x car at the same place...

Car and Driver put the 2011 Brembo GT in a "Best Handling" test in 2010 and ran a 1:32.5.

I'm sure the actual owner above was competent, he provided a reference somewhat. He's no fool... Yet C&D can get within a second of the 2014 1LE with a 2011 GT. I've heard of faster S197's there too...

http://m.caranddriver.com/features/best-handling-car-for-less-than-40000-370z-vs-evo-mustang-gt-gti-miata-mini-jcw-feature-2011-ford-mustang-gt-page-5

At the time, the Brembo GT was a $32,000 car... Why again am I supposed to be impressed? I just seen a comitted driver, with 700 miles of 1LE seat time just push beyond a second from a 2011 GT... driven by Car and Driver...

That's not encouraging...

You are killing me thePill! I could not sign up fast enough..

Grattan was repaved in 2010 and the track was waayyyy faster in 2010/11. My NASA TTS record was smashed by over 3 seconds.....with the same rules in 2010 by a friend. Lap times during that time cannot be compared to pre repave or lap times now that the track is seasoned again. This a common issue with tracks that get repaved and is currently happening at Gingerman with the repave earlier this year. They are FASSSST for a year or so and then the lap times fall back into place. The GT test you reference was in 2010 and published early 2011.

...and, Ford said the 2015 GTPP was 1.5 seconds faster than the Boss 302 at Gratten so... I'm assuming the Boss has very little advantage over the Brembo GT at Gratten, maybe 1/2 a second. I can imagine Ford shot for the M3's lap time of 1:30 at the same track...

I don't understand how a driver can pound away at Gratten in a 1LE yet still only best a 1:31.47. With 700 miles of seat time... That's 350 laps in one car, at one track, by one driver... who also held the track record from 2005 to 2010...

It was 07-2010 ..... To clarify, the car had 700 miles total on it. I had a couple 20 minute session that day at the track to run the 1:31.47 and that was a shake down just to get a feel for the car. I was taking it out in-between instructing there. I would say I was running a legit 9/10 as I was getting a feel for 4000lbs(with driver) on stock brakes and tires. They may have been some 1:30s in the car that day...but I didn't want to ball it up after 8 days of ownership.

Feel free to ask any questions.....We had a Mustang GT in the fleet up until this past Friday when it lost the brakes straight out of the car wash and was totaled :( No injuries!

Matt

 

[thePill]

You are killing me thePill! I could not sign up fast enough..

Grattan was repaved in 2010 and the track was waayyyy faster in 2010/11. My NASA TTS record was smashed by over 3 seconds.....with the same rules in 2010 by a friend. Lap times during that time cannot be compared to pre repave or lap times now that the track is seasoned again. This a common issue with tracks that get repaved and is currently happening at Gingerman with the repave earlier this year. They are FASSSST for a year or so and then the lap times fall back into place. The GT test you reference was in 2010 and published early 2011.




It was 07-2010 ..... To clarify, the car had 700 miles total on it. I had a couple 20 minute session that day at the track to run the 1:31.47 and that was a shake down just to get a feel for the car. I was taking it out in-between instructing there. I would say I was running a legit 9/10 as I was getting a feel for 4000lbs(with driver) on stock brakes and tires. They may have been some 1:30s in the car that day...but I didn't want to ball it up after 8 days of ownership.

Feel free to ask any questions.....We had a Mustang GT in the fleet up until this past Friday when it lost the brakes straight out of the car wash and was totaled :( No injuries!

Matt

There are no Boss 302's that run Gratten at your speed... Not that I know of. There is one that claims he did it in 1:21 but that's just plain BS... They claim stock too and that's just not happening. Maybe on a modified track...


Edit: Nvm, that 1:21 was in the Buckeye Region, not sure which track.

 

[thePill]

The new surface wasn't completed until May 2011. They opened the season up with Open Track in April 2011 with the new surface for the first time.

It's still possible these test were done in 2011.

Edit: Published Sept 2011, it was on a new surface. I doubt the Boss could break 1:32 regularly but you never know.

1:32.5 is still very good for a 2011 GT at 2.2 miles. To be honest, there is even a slimmer gap between a GT and an SS/1LE in SCCA. I just don't see the domination that was clearly demonstrated in magazine reviews. Sometimes 2-3 seconds faster in some test... in reality, the advantages are just not there.

 

[thePill]

You are killing me thePill! I could not sign up fast enough..

Grattan was repaved in 2010 and the track was waayyyy faster in 2010/11. My NASA TTS record was smashed by over 3 seconds.....with the same rules in 2010 by a friend. Lap times during that time cannot be compared to pre repave or lap times now that the track is seasoned again. This a common issue with tracks that get repaved and is currently happening at Gingerman with the repave earlier this year. They are FASSSST for a year or so and then the lap times fall back into place. The GT test you reference was in 2010 and published early 2011.




It was 07-2010 ..... To clarify, the car had 700 miles total on it. I had a couple 20 minute session that day at the track to run the 1:31.47 and that was a shake down just to get a feel for the car. I was taking it out in-between instructing there. I would say I was running a legit 9/10 as I was getting a feel for 4000lbs(with driver) on stock brakes and tires. They may have been some 1:30s in the car that day...but I didn't want to ball it up after 8 days of ownership.

Feel free to ask any questions.....We had a Mustang GT in the fleet up until this past Friday when it lost the brakes straight out of the car wash and was totaled :( No injuries!

Matt

Ah, here is a question from one of thePill's fans straight outta Butte, Montana!!!

9 seconds faster than 1:31.5 is 1:32.5 while the GT350 is 3 seconds faster than his 1:28.7 at 1:25.7. My question Mr. Pill is, Ford stated that the GT350 was a second faster than the Z/28. In my opinion as you said is that the Z/28 is only a 1:36 second car at best. That ZL1 was 1:27.8 and 2 seconds at 2.2 miles between them is a lot. Do you think it's possible the second faster reference was in regards to the GT350TP? It seems like this mans GT350 claim is more or less what Ford says it is. The R looks to be much faster

I don't know but a good question. Not the first time I heard the TP was designed to go head to head with the z28. It would have left too much to chance and would have been another 50/50. The R was suppose to be the nail in the coffin after the basement MSRP was met.

In my opinion, the GT350TP, C7 Z51 and z28 are all going to be about equal.

 

[Dropspeed]

Ah, here is a question from one of thePill's fans straight outta Butte, Montana!!!

9 seconds faster than 1:31.5 is 1:32.5 while the GT350 is 3 seconds faster than his 1:28.7 at 1:25.7. My question Mr. Pill is, Ford stated that the GT350 was a second faster than the Z/28. In my opinion as you said is that the Z/28 is only a 1:36 second car at best. That ZL1 was 1:27.8 and 2 seconds at 2.2 miles between them is a lot. Do you think it's possible the second faster reference was in regards to the GT350TP? It seems like this mans GT350 claim is more or less what Ford says it is. The R looks to be much faster

I don't know but a good question. Not the first time I heard the TP was designed to go head to head with the z28. It would have left too much to chance and would have been another 50/50. The R was suppose to be the nail in the coffin after the basement MSRP was met.

In my opinion, the GT350TP, C7 Z51 and z28 are all going to be about equal.

More clarification time... straight from Ford: There were only a GT350TP and GT350R at the track. all of my reference to the GT350 was actually a GT350TP.

“…Last week brought out our GT350R and our GT350 Track Pack here at Grattan to do fair, back-to-back same day, same driver comparison. The GT350R with the Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires is equal to the hundredth of a second as fast as the Porsche 911 GT3 and it is over a second quicker than the Z28,” Chief Functional Engineer, Global Performance Vehicles at Ford Motor Company, Kerry Baldori said. “The base GT350 with the Track Pack, which uses the Pilot Super Sport tire, is equal again, to within a hundredth of a second, to the Porsche Carrera and the Corvette C7 with the Z51 package.”

So GT350R is about 1 second faster than a Z/28 at Grattan... The GT350TP is slower than a Z/28 at Grattan.

Compete article here with Videos: copy link and remove spaces to view


WWW .svtperformance .com/2015/07/29/news-2015-shelby-gt350r-first-ride/#more-19919

 

[thePill]

More clarification time... straight from Ford: There were only a GT350TP and GT350R at the track. all of my reference to the GT350 was actually a GT350TP.

“…Last week brought out our GT350R and our GT350 Track Pack here at Grattan to do fair, back-to-back same day, same driver comparison. The GT350R with the Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires is equal to the hundredth of a second as fast as the Porsche 911 GT3 and it is over a second quicker than the Z28,” Chief Functional Engineer, Global Performance Vehicles at Ford Motor Company, Kerry Baldori said. “The base GT350 with the Track Pack, which uses the Pilot Super Sport tire, is equal again, to within a hundredth of a second, to the Porsche Carrera and the Corvette C7 with the Z51 package.”

So GT350R is about 1 second faster than a Z/28 at Grattan... The GT350TP is slower than a Z/28 at Grattan.

Compete article here with Videos: copy link and remove spaces to view


WWW .svtperformance .com/2015/07/29/news-2015-shelby-gt350r-first-ride/#more-19919

Im hanging my hat on the GT350TP being faster than the z28.

A few reasons why...

Better PtW
Better Footprint
Better powerband and reduced shifts
MagnaRide

Yes the GT350TP is only slightly lighter and has less front tire and no R rubber. In my opinion, it will be hard to overcome a superior PtW, footprint and powerband alone. The MagnaRide is another wild variable that will only aid magazine testers.

I doubt Ford will send a TP... They made the R for a Reason...

 

[Dropspeed]

There are no Boss 302's that run Gratten at your speed... Not that I know of. There is one that claims he did it in 1:21 but that's just plain BS... They claim stock too and that's just not happening. Maybe on a modified track...


Edit: Nvm, that 1:21 was in the Buckeye Region, not sure which track.

I have been on track with a handful of Boss 302 and never had an issue with any of them. I had the pleasure of driving one and if felt lighter and more "flickable", but it did not feel as planted as my 1LE and did not have the torque down low.

Now, the 302 on a good set of tires and wheel is a different animal and can shave seconds of the stock car.

The new surface wasn't completed until May 2011. They opened the season up with Open Track in April 2011 with the new surface for the first time.

It's still possible these test were done in 2011.

Edit: Published Sept 2011, it was on a new surface. I doubt the Boss could break 1:32 regularly but you never know.

1:32.5 is still very good for a 2011 GT at 2.2 miles. To be honest, there is even a slimmer gap between a GT and an SS/1LE in SCCA. I just don't see the domination that was clearly demonstrated in magazine reviews. Sometimes 2-3 seconds faster in some test... in reality, the advantages are just not there.

In my experience the 1LE grip provides confidence, the Mustang may be able to "hang" but it needs to be driven on what feels like its limit.

I didn't remember the exact dates, but it was on the new surface. Growing up living in Detroit and working in the industry has its advantages....A lot of your "car friends" are now "somebody" at fun automotive related places...

 

[Dropspeed]

Im hanging my hat on the GT350TP being faster than the z28.

A few reasons why...

Better PtW
Better Footprint
Better powerband and reduced shifts
MagnaRide

Yes the GT350TP is only slightly lighter and has less front tire and no R rubber. In my opinion, it will be hard to overcome a superior PtW, footprint and powerband alone. The MagnaRide is another wild variable that will only aid magazine testers.

I doubt Ford will send a TP... They made the R for a Reason...

At Grattan the TP was a tad slower than the Z/28 in the hands of the Ford drivers.

It is hard to beat the Multimatic DSSV dampers purposely build for the track and slightly detuned for street driving. The Magnaride is a better all-purpose set-up, but remember it was introduced on Cadillac's first for its ride quality. I have the Z/28 DSSV suspension package in my garage that I will be installing this week.

I got to ride in a GT350TP a few months back on the potholed streets around MI and it rode firm, but nice... The sound from the exhaust is nothing short of a Ferrari on full tilt and the seats are great. It is a great performance bargain and I look forward to flogging one on track...

 

[thePill]

Too early for VIR...

150mph+ in the back, 145+ in the front. 2:45-2:46... no word on TP...


No more VIR for now, it's Laguna month so Laguna only.

 

[thePill]

This guy... Yes, a bottom feeding vehicle is bad.

It's obvious you don't know about the Mustang's current air flow issues. The Boss 302 was the first to go noticed. After hard use, the Boss 302 could reach nearly 240 degrees both water and oil. This was an incredible issue in the Pre-'13 Mustang's. Mainly due to blocked airflow and a smaller front grill area. Well, the Mustang adopted the GT500 fascia, specifically design to eat more air. It helped the 2013 Boss to some degree BUT, drivers STILL kicked the mesh out. It was a serious problem, it never caused a failure that I know of but 240/240 is unacceptable. Note the z28 runs water at 280-300 degrees... Paul Brown even design a special heat extractor for the Boss to help.

So, larger grill area the problem should be solved right? Wrong... As we have heard from the GT350 drivers on occasion, the GT350 requires good air. Air that is only available if the car is in first and in no traffic. I clearly warned the GT350 would more than likely need to drop the mesh like the Boss did. The z28 needs to remove more than just the rain shield as well... but nobody serious drives a z28 so we never see that.

Ultimately, the 2016 Camaro will absolutely require an AC delete since 95% of its airflow is down low. The condenser blocks all the air to the lower grill... You are getting ZERO air in traffic and the little you do get is exhaust gas from the GT350. Even if your in front, you are sucking red hot ambient road heat into your engine bay.

The 6Gen's front fascia is of poor design. The ATS and CTS have a far better opening.

While the Mustang struggles to actually remedy this issue, the Camaro is not immune to this. In fact, most of the Mustang's fascia design was function vs. the Camaro's form. To think that even with all of Ford's effort in this area and it still is a looming issue... The Camaro doesn't magically avoid this, the Flo-Tie was made to help airflow too. With 3 radiators and a smaller upper inlet, I'd say it's a huge area of concern. With AC equiped, it's just not getting any direct air.

 

[Dropspeed]

This guy... Yes, a bottom feeding vehicle is bad.

It's obvious you don't know about the Mustang's current air flow issues. The Boss 302 was the first to go noticed. After hard use, the Boss 302 could reach nearly 240 degrees both water and oil. This was an incredible issue in the Pre-'13 Mustang's. Mainly due to blocked airflow and a smaller front grill area. Well, the Mustang adopted the GT500 fascia, specifically design to eat more air. It helped the 2013 Boss to so degree BUT, drivers STILL kicked the mesh out. It was a serious problem, it never caused a failure that I know of but 240/240 is unacceptable. Note the z28 runs water at 280-300 degrees...

So, larger grill area the problem should be solved right? Wrong... As we have heard from the GT350 drivers on occasion, the GT350 requires good air. Air that is only available if the car is in first and in no traffic. I clearly warned the GT350 would more than likely need to drop the mesh like the Boss did. The z28 needs to remove more than just the rain shield as well... but nobody serious drives a z28 so we never see that.

Ultimately, the 2016 Camaro will absolutely require an AC delete since 95% of its airflow is down low. The condenser blocks all the air to the lower grill... You are getting ZERO air in traffic and the little you do get is exhaust gas from the GT350. Even if your in front, you are sucking red hot ambient road heat into your engine bay.

The 6Gen's front fascia is of poor design. The ATS and CTS have a far better opening.

Do you have a background in Aerodynamics and Thermodynamics?

 

[thePill]

Do you have a background in Aerodynamics and Thermodynamics?

Yes, among other things. Study from the Streamline Era to Modern.

I am in a constant state of upgrade training.

Everything but drivetrain, engine and trans.

Also Paint Chemistry, Motorsport Chassis Fab/Engineering, Advance Metal and Metal Working, Trim and Upholstery (Custom and OEM), Suspension/Steering Geometry and Alignment (Chief) and Collision... Automotive Business Core, Applied Seevice Management. I re entered training in 2012, I am on a break now...

 

[Dropspeed]

Yes, among other things.

If your experience is in the auto industry then you are already aware production vehicles need to be consumer friendly (I mean dummy proofed) so I will speak to your fans! Making a "track car" for the street, sold to the public and with a warranty is a balancing act. The vehicles (Mustang GT350R, Camaro Z/28.........Fiat 500, etc....) must all be tested in extreme conditions, including winter testing which takes place in Northern Michigan, Northern Minnesota, Novia Scotia, etc in the dead of winter. It must survive and perform in those conditions as well as the heat of the summer in the desert. A customer must be able to drive his/her car anywhere, rain shine, sleet or snow..even if we all cringe at the sight of it out in the snow and salt.

With that being said, for the like minded individuals that have second, third, fourth cars we have the luxury of driving ours in the summer only, and some only at track days. For us, there are always modifications that can (and should) be made to better the vehicle for track use. I assume (I PRAY) there is not a single person that tracks their vehicle that hasn't at least replaced the DOT3 with a DOT4 brake fluid...the same can be said for cooling and airflow. There are modifications that can be made to improve them, for summer only vehicles.

For example: I have a 2013 (pre-face lift) and the current set-up without the 14+ hood vent creates 150lb/ft of lift at speed. I will be installing a 2014+ hood which will increase airflow, reduce underhood temps and neutralize the lift (it will not create downforce). I consider that a cost of doing "business" on track, not an issue.


EDIT: So it doesn't help that I look at the Z/28 forums and the first post is about overheating! :headbonk:

Matt

 

[thePill]

Yes, I love when my topics are heavily discussed the next day. It is a concern, 300 degree oil temps in a Dry Sump is a very bad. Again, water temps were 250 and that's not great either...

Here's one running hot oil but water seems good...

Stephen has a solution and I think he's on to something. A 3rd heat exchanger will help remedy bad air. It also seems like AC cars are the ones running hot water and oil. While AC delete cars are just hot oil.

Remember my warning here, the lower main grill needs additional coolers to keep the engine cool. Some issue may be AC equiped (like I suggested) and a dominant lower grill opening. In hot weather, it's getting 100+ degree temperatures splashed on the rad...

Q ask a great question... What's the problem???

Well Q, poor grill design is one of the factors here. The Flo-Tie and additional coolers were a band-aid of sorts. The main issue is, AC equiped z28's are not getting the air they need to cool the water...

So there you have it... It's an issue and an issue that is being carried over to Gen6. The 3rd radiator on the 2016 should help... but the main radiator has gotten smaller. I don't understand it... Why reduce the size of your main cooler just to squeeze in two additional (and poorly positioned) auxiliary radiators.

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