Can someone explain my timing?

[Howler5.O]

I recently requested a tune revision from Lund for an '18 manifold and LU47's. Lund gave me a no-flex base tune to get started and after providing them with a log after install, they gave me a flex and e85R tune to test. At this time I am still on the no-flex base tune because I have a question about my timing before I move forward.

After reviewing the log, my timing slowly climbs to about 30* up until the low 5k rpm range then starts to decrease to about 25* at 7K+. At the same time, knock is still reading negative numbers. I thought it may have been an octane issue but I added 16 oz of Boostane to a full tank and I am seeing the same results. It was my understanding that timing should gradually increase through the pull and peak at around 30*.

Can someone explain what I am seeing? I am interested in educating myself on what is happening before I move forward with the e85 tunes. I've included a link to the original log I sent Lund and the most recent log with Boostane below. Thanks for your help!

91 Log

91 with Boostane Log

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[markmurfie]

Too me it looks like the IMRC is not opening. Maybe you hooked up some of the vacuum hoses wrong. This would possibly put you on the wrong mapped point tables (the IMRC closed ones) getting the wrong MBT values.

Load should be over 1.0 at its peak and MAF should be in the mid to high 40's.
If you don't have them locked open sometimes thats the easier option on your end.

 

[Howler5.O]

Sorry, I forgot to to mention that IMRC’s have been deleted and locked out.

 

[Jay-rod427]

Agreed something is squirrely with MAF and load not showing full potential. That is really good timing for pump 91 tho.

 

[Howler5.O]

Do you think it’s a mechanical issue or a something I should address with the tuner?

 

[Angry50]

what did lund say? most of it is going to depend on what they are commanding in the tune. i wouldnt assume an issue unless the tuner says it looks like there is an issue

 

[Bluemustang]

Do you think it’s a mechanical issue or a something I should address with the tuner?

I would just double check your concern with Lund. They will tell you. Trust the real tuner not the armchair tuner.

 

[CrashOverride]

If @markmurfie is who I think he is on the HP Tuners boards, he really knows his stuff.

 

[Howler5.O]

Don’t get me wrong, I am not assuming there is an issue. I only want to understand what I am looking at. I was hoping to that there was someone here who could share their expertise with me without having to bug the tuner with a “dumb question” but I get it, the tuner is going to be the best person to raise any questions with.

That being said, I did talk to Lund and the reason for my load and MAF reading low is because of my elevation. I am at 7000 feet. I was also told that my timing is as much as the knock sensors are wanting to give. I plan on running a log at 1000 feet and comparing the two for differences (for my educational purposes).

 

[markmurfie]

IDK how in depth you want me or anyone to try explain your timing from a calibration never seen. My original explanation of missing air was correct, just my assumptions as to why was not. Not all the information needed for a proper conclusion was presented. Elevation certainly is very important when it comes to air, especially when you are talking about 7000 feet and most people are going to assume 2000 or less.

The timing your engine actually runs at is labeled saftot. If you add saftot and the knock PID you start to get closer to borderline timing which it usually starts from at WOT. Comparing this done in both logs you get a very similar base timing line. The reason it is not flatter is because the AFR thats its currently at modifies the base borderline number. ACT and ECT and a few other also have an effect but AFR is the big one. As you can see base timing drops in the higher RPMs. Normally you would be in COT protection and the AFR modifier would add the missing timing back in as it goes rich. "Coyotes like to run rich". If you histogram it on average, it all looks ok. If you switch it to min. you see the drop in the borderline timing on the histogram. For "interest" factor I also added a pic comparing the histogram of your log to stock MP 14 and 21 borderline tables (the main ones used for high rpm WOT stock cam timing). You can see the timing drop is just like stock MP 14, and its up to 3*, which is what the AFR modifier is in COT. You will just have to take your tuners word that its truely the knock sensors saying thats all the timing it wants, and not the knock advanced being limited from the normal 10* to 5* advance 5500RPM and up. At that load 29-31* is MBT for pump gas (should be 1-2* more for E85) in MP14 and 21 and I would have thought 91 would get you that, and definitely after you added boostane. Ford really designed the coyote to run optimally every where on 91+ octane. At a lower elevation you would normally be two load rows lower and the drop is less significant. The stock manifold would only be one row lower as it chokes in the higher RPM and even that is significant in the case of how much the base timing drops off.

I personally think there's a ton of very talented and knowledgeable people on forums/ facebook groups. Any one discouraging their use to seek information or personal education and discrediting all the people on them are missing out on an amazing free resource. Sure there are many "use the search", "google it", and other troll post, along with people sharing misinformation knowing or unknowing. They are just a great place to get into arguments and leave learning something or teaching something.

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