Passing emissions with my Procharger

[mustang1]

Our EO tune, for the EO kit is for 91/93

Technically there is no difference in the file from our normal HO and STG2 files, other then dialing in the fueling for the injector we picked for that system. The rest of the file is identical. (AKA, cam timing, spark timing, air fuel, etc)

OP says he logged knock on the procharger tune. If Cali 91 is more like 89-90 octane then it seems like there would be special Cali 91 tune for the standard 52 / 95.

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[markmurfie]

Well, here’s my update from the weekend. Like I said the tuner sent me
Another revision last Tuesday and I couldn’t stop myself from installing it per his instructions. Well now I have CAT, O2, and HO2 not ready after 550 miles on this revision. This is strange because after installing the previous revision the CAT monitor cleared within the first hundred miles. Also this revision doesn’t like cold start ups. Sometimes I wonder if tuners just have a big jar of pre-written tunes they just pull files from and randomly send them whenever someone is having a problem. Anyway, just going to keep driving it.

This past week I probably put 40-50 miles doing a constant 40mph, so much for that being the O2 monitor trick.

The more I checked out rear o2s, I'm thinking your sensor 2 readings are way lean. They should only show a small bump down towards lean, but should pretty much always indicate rich. Lean means cats are not doing their job or are not efficient enough for what the tune is doing.

I haven't had any luck with it, only tried it on off-road exhaust, but you may get away using some spark plug defoulers and getting the rear sensors out of the exhaust stream. I always was told get two stacked per sensor and drill one out to make sure the sensor is fully out of the pipe. Kinda extreme for a car with stock cats, but it's not as expensive as replacing cats or as time consuming as returning to stock.

 

[Bartly]

The more I checked out rear o2s, I'm thinking your sensor 2 readings are way lean. They should only show a small bump down towards lean, but should pretty much always indicate rich. Lean means cats are not doing their job or are not efficient enough for what the tune is doing.

I haven't had any luck with it, only tried it on off-road exhaust, but you may get away using some spark plug defoulers and getting the rear sensors out of the exhaust stream. I always was told get two stacked per sensor and drill one out to make sure the sensor is fully out of the pipe. Kinda extreme for a car with stock cats, but it's not as expensive as replacing cats or as time consuming as returning to stock.

Thanks for helping with the diagnosis. I only know what I've been reading the last couple weeks and had myself thinking they were always rich here's why, you gotta tell me why I am wrong. So looking at what it says about the HO2S monitors in the FSM:
"The HO2S senses the oxygen content in the exhaust flow. The typical HO2S outputs a voltage between 0 and 1.0 volt.
Lean of stoichiometric, air to fuel ratio of approximately 14.7 to 1 (9 to 1 E100), the HO2S generates a voltage between 0 and 0.45 volt.
Rich of stoichiometric, the HO2S generates a voltage between 0.45 and 1.0 volt. The current required to maintain the universal HO2S at 0.45 volt is used by the PCM to calculate the air to fuel ratio."

The downstream sensors in my logs and also just watching the ngauge are always hovering around .75ish, so rich by that blue sentence above? When they switch, the dive down into below .45 and then back up to .75ish fairly quickly.
Watching Lambda on the ngauge always looks like it's >1 most the time, also looking at the logs, it does appear to spend slightly more time above 1, but also a fair amount below. So Lambda >1 is lean, but the downstream HO2s are always .75ish unless switching so they are rich.
So to me seems like HO2S are measuring rich, but Lambda is measuring Lean, I don't get that part. What am I missing?

Also, thanks for the info on the defoulers, I've been seeing mention of those possibly working or not, but just not sure of that yet, but now I'm thinking of it more when you compare the amount of work compared to removing the supercharger. Wondering how the car would react to them not being as "correct", would the car run as good/strong or would they be something that gets removed when past this ordeal?

Thanks again.

 

[markmurfie]

So the cats job is to "burn" the bad emissions into less bad emissions. When it does this it uses the excess oxygen in the exhaust. The rear O2s should see a significantly less amount of oxygen when the cats are working.(high voltage/rich) That's why you can't use them directly in fuel correction other wise the OEM would only use one sensor.

Do not put defoulers on the front O2's, just the back ones.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/600.113-12#f_5

After reading this, I think small tires would help. Kinda tricking the car into thinking it's going farther on less, as long as the bcm doesn't figure it out. Speedo will be off, but 26" tall tires could get you 1/4 more on the same emissions. If you were close it could help. But, $ for tires and find a size that fits.

 

[Bartly]

So the cats job is to "burn" the bad emissions into less bad emissions. When it does this it uses the excess oxygen in the exhaust. The rear O2s should see a significantly less amount of oxygen when the cats are working.(high voltage/rich) That's why you can't use them directly in fuel correction other wise the OEM would only use one sensor.

Do not put defoulers on the front O2's, just the back ones.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/600.113-12#f_5

After reading this, I think small tires would help. Kinda tricking the car into thinking it's going farther on less, as long as the bcm doesn't figure it out. Speedo will be off, but 26" tall tires could get you 1/4 more on the same emissions. If you were close it could help. But, $ for tires and find a size that fits.

That was quite the document, thanks for sharing. So distance traveled per amount of pollutants is where your going with smaller tires. There would be different load on the engine with the ratio change, wondering how that would affect things. Also wondering if there is a ring and pinion gear ratio adjustment in the pcm or ecm that would do the same thing? I can’t swing different tires to try it out and don’t really hang with any crowd locally. One way or another it’s going to work out. I’m just going to keep putting miles on it. It is strange that this go around my CAT monitor isn’t passing.

Car runs fine, although this latest tune revision doesn’t like cold starts. So there is that.

 

[mustang1]

That was quite the document, thanks for sharing. So distance traveled per amount of pollutants is where your going with smaller tires. There would be different load on the engine with the ratio change, wondering how that would affect things. Also wondering if there is a ring and pinion gear ratio adjustment in the pcm or ecm that would do the same thing? I can’t swing different tires to try it out and don’t really hang with any crowd locally. One way or another it’s going to work out. I’m just going to keep putting miles on it. It is strange that this go around my CAT monitor isn’t passing.

Car runs fine, although this latest tune revision doesn’t like cold starts. So there is that.

I didn't read that article but I am not sure why tires would make a difference. The car computer is probably trying to analyzing exhaust gases, and looking at percentages of CO, HC, CO2, NOx, and O2. Clean combustion will generate one set of numbers. Vacuum leaks, dirty MAF, cats or o2 sensors, etc. will generate another set of numbers.

It would be better if you could run the procharger California EO# tune rather than a custom tune. That tune would have had the Monitors green, and would be a more predictable baseline.

For your current tune, you could get exhaust gas analysis as next step.

 

[Bartly]

I didn't read that article but I am not sure why tires would make a difference. The car computer is probably trying to analyzing exhaust gases, and looking at percentages of CO, HC, CO2, NOx, and O2. Clean combustion will generate one set of numbers. Vacuum leaks, dirty MAF, cats or o2 sensors, etc. will generate another set of numbers.

It would be better if you could run the procharger California EO# tune rather than a custom tune. That tune would have had the Monitors green, and would be a more predictable baseline.

For your current tune, you could get exhaust gas analysis as next step.

Running the Procharger California EO# tune isn't even an option, might as well say it would be better to drive a Lambo. I received the Procharger tune when I bought/installed my Stage 2 kit last winter and it wouldn't run/drive right without a few tweaks from the local guy on a dyno. I'd love to have an opportunity to try the EO tune, but when I contacted Procharger tuning a couple weeks back they said that I had to deal with the local shop who dialed my original tune in. I've had the kit installed for just about a year now and from the response I received from Procharger, they are done with me. I don't think or care whether my original Procharger tune is EO or not because it doesn't matter, it just is what it is and never ran right anyway. There is just no option for me on that subject. I did contact the local guy and he looked at my tune and gave me a new version today, yeah, crazy right, what a rabbit hole. Start over or not that is the question.
The local guy runs a nice shop, but he isn't the best at Coyote stuff, more of a LS guy, but he made my car run good so that's good. Just had that situation with the knock sensors, but I'm half blaming that on me complaining about them going off so much, not knowing they do what they do for a reason, and my 91 is just shit. Cant blame him as I think he was waiting for Procharger to pay him for the time he was spending on my car and with me starting up with the complaining about knock sensors.

I am curious on the exhaust gas analysis, what would that tell me that logging the O2 sensors data is telling me? Also, I'm not sure if there is a local shop that does this and if I could be lucky enough to find a skilled enough actual real life honest mechanic to decipher the analysis and have a solution for me.

Anyway, I'll keep on driving.

 

[mustang1]

How about an exhaust analysis test ? Call a local auto repair shop and ask if they can do that.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2000/ic60032.htm
Emissions Testing: Exhaust Analysis
CRUISE EMISSIONS TESTING
At cruise, the engine is lightly loaded and running at high rpm. Under these conditions, HC and CO should be low if the oxygen sensor and feed back control system are working properly, and the catalytic converter is in good condition.

http://www.austincc.edu/wkibbe/lambda.htm
Lambda as a Diagnostic Tool
What's wrong with this car? ...

 

[ProChargerTECH]

By Federal Law, we are only allowed to send that tune out at the time of purchase of a fuel system, to the original customer.

That being said, we don't "HIDE" anything in our files. (unlike some)
And anyone with HPTuners can find a car with that file, download it and view it.

I have seen MANY "custom" tunes in Mustangs, that are actually our file.
(I have a few numbers in the background that I can see, that get loaded with our file)

 

[tjwoo]

40mph no dice. 2 hrs

 

[keltymd]

Just curious. As it appears to be more of a blow thru issue has anyone tried disconnectin their down pipe from the SC and driving for a while to see if with it drawing air thru vs blowing thru it made a difference?

 

[Bartly]

By Federal Law, we are only allowed to send that tune out at the time of purchase of a fuel system, to the original customer.

That being said, we don't "HIDE" anything in our files. (unlike some)
And anyone with HPTuners can find a car with that file, download it and view it.

I have seen MANY "custom" tunes in Mustangs, that are actually our file.
(I have a few numbers in the background that I can see, that get loaded with our file)

I think that story of yours is a bit of a Red Herring. Federal Law that you can't send out a working tune? Shit, you sent me 9 revisions of a bad tune. What, and you're not allowed to send out a "rev 10" that has your "Federal Friendly" parameters? Doesn't really bother me because I don't believe that you could or would send a tune that would actually work any better than revisions 1-9 let alone pass emissions. Sorry, nothing personal, just calling it as I see it.

40mph no dice. 2 hrs

Awe sorry dude, me either. Did you ever get your CAT monitor to go ready? Mine won't go, and I've done it before within 100 miles. I've done 30 minutes at 40mph, probably 5 40mph 5-10 minute trips, probably 10-12 hours of 60mph in all kinds of increments including a few 2hr trips. O2, HO2 and CAT no bueno.

If I recall you are running the Procharger tune? I know my tune is based on Procharger s tune and we are both having same exact problems. I’ve been emailing with Lund and they said the monitors should all ready within 100 miles. He actually thought it was hard to believe the O2s wouldn’t ready with the factory cats installed. I just can’t help but think it’s something rooted in the PC tune that’s killing us. Of course Lund did say they won’t garantee that the O2s would pass with their tune. It’s tough to tell who’s just trying to sell product.

Just curious. As it appears to be more of a blow thru issue has anyone tried disconnectin their down pipe from the SC and driving for a while to see if with it drawing air thru vs blowing thru it made a difference?

No I haven't tried that would disconnecting the supercharger pulley achieve the same thing? I haven't ever tried that either.

 

[mustang1]

data log data for LTFT1(%) and LTFT2(%) are different. Would that indicate a problem ?

from previous markmurfie posting,

LTFT1(%)
min -4
max -2
avg -2.68

LTFT2(%)
min -2
max +2
avg -0.17

 

[ProChargerTECH]

Just curious. As it appears to be more of a blow thru issue has anyone tried disconnectin their down pipe from the SC and driving for a while to see if with it drawing air thru vs blowing thru it made a difference?

That will make NO difference.

You guys have to understand that the "test" for monitors has nearly nothing to do with how the car is running and driving. Unless your tune is so garbage that the testing parameters can't be reached. (and you would know cause it would drive terrible)

So, all monitors are doing is running a check to make sure...
1) The emissions equipment is still installed in the car.
2) Working like its supposed to be working.

The THREE MAIN reasons these monitors won't set are...

1) Someone loaded the wrong operating system onto the car. IE: Shoved a file onto the PCM from another car. I see this happen a LOT.

2) A switch in the PCM for that monitor has accidentally been turned off. There is no reason to do that, however, I do see it happen frequently. (don't know why)

3) The part of emissions equipment has been removed, modified or tampered with.

I think that story of yours is a bit of a Red Herring. Federal Law that you can't send out a working tune? Shit, you sent me 9 revisions of a bad tune. What, and you're not allowed to send out a "rev 10" that has your "Federal Friendly" parameters? Doesn't really bother me because I don't believe that you could or would send a tune that would actually work any better than revisions 1-9 let alone pass emissions. Sorry, nothing personal, just calling it as I see it.

You didn't have an "EO" tune, and thus we could send 1000 if we wanted.

I understand your frustration, however, YOU were the one that chose to use another tuner. We never gave up trying, even though you have the ONLY car to date that has ever had those many revisions.

I send out files every day and have for the better part of 2.5 years now. Its pretty rare for me to ever send a revision unless it's just for dialing in the hot start on those big 95lb injectors. (some cars stumble, some don't... and I'm not the only tuner that has fought that... DiabloMatt has, I know Lund has as well)



SIDE NOTE: I know that for some reason you like to argue with me, while i am trying to help you. BUT, I am part of the team that created the tune file for our 2015+ Mustangs that passes LV3 emissions. I think we are only 1 of 3 companies to do that with an injector change..... Whipple, Roush, and Us. However possibly the ONLY company that did that without help from Ford. I am not saying we are better than anyone. Just saying, we do know what we are talking about. And have a Carb EO# to prove that.

SO help me, HELP you... instead of always arguing please. (even though you don't run our file)

I know my tune is based on Procharger s tune and we are both having same exact problems. I’ve been emailing with Lund and they said the monitors should all ready within 100 miles. He actually thought it was hard to believe the O2s wouldn’t ready with the factory cats installed. I just can’t help but think it’s something rooted in the PC tune that’s killing us. Of course Lund did say they won’t garantee that the O2s would pass with their tune. It’s tough to tell who’s just trying to sell product.

Nothing in a LUND tune should be based on ours.
He doesn't even use the same software that we use.


We have no issues setting all monitors with our files.
There is NO reason monitors shouldn't set with a car that has a properly installed system, and no modifications to emissions equipment.

No I haven't tried that would disconnecting the supercharger pulley achieve the same thing? I haven't ever tried that either.

That will not do a thing. Don't even waste the time. The monitors don't care about if you have a power adder or not.

data log data for LTFT1(%) and LTFT2(%) are different.

LTFT1(%)
min -4
max -2
avg -2.68

LTFT2(%)
min -2
max +2
avg -0.17

There will always be a difference, and anything +/- 5% is considered perfect.

Heck factory injectors have a tolerance of +/- 6%, and fuel brands alone can vary up to 10+%.... so stack that on top of injector error and you "COULD" have up to a 16% deviation. (not common, but could happen)

 

[Bartly]

That will make NO difference.

You guys have to understand that the "test" for monitors has nearly nothing to do with how the car is running and driving. Unless your tune is so garbage that the testing parameters can't be reached. (and you would know cause it would drive terrible)

So, all monitors are doing is running a check to make sure...
1) The emissions equipment is still installed in the car.
2) Working like its supposed to be working.

The THREE MAIN reasons these monitors won't set are...

1) Someone loaded the wrong operating system onto the car. IE: Shoved a file onto the PCM from another car. I see this happen a LOT.

2) A switch in the PCM for that monitor has accidentally been turned off. There is no reason to do that, however, I do see it happen frequently. (don't know why)

3) The part of emissions equipment has been removed, modified or tampered with.



You didn't have an "EO" tune, and thus we could send 1000 if we wanted.

I understand your frustration, however, YOU were the one that chose to use another tuner. We never gave up trying, even though you have the ONLY car to date that has ever had those many revisions.

I send out files every day and have for the better part of 2.5 years now. Its pretty rare for me to ever send a revision unless it's just for dialing in the hot start on those big 95lb injectors. (some cars stumble, some don't... and I'm not the only tuner that has fought that... DiabloMatt has, I know Lund has as well)



SIDE NOTE: I know that for some reason you like to argue with me, while i am trying to help you. BUT, I am part of the team that created the tune file for our 2015+ Mustangs that passes LV3 emissions. I think we are only 1 of 3 companies to do that with an injector change..... Whipple, Roush, and Us. However possibly the ONLY company that did that without help from Ford. I am not saying we are better than anyone. Just saying, we do know what we are talking about. And have a Carb EO# to prove that.

SO help me, HELP you... instead of always arguing please. (even though you don't run our file)





Nothing in a LUND tune should be based on ours.
He doesn't even use the same software that we use.


We have no issues setting all monitors with our files.
There is NO reason monitors shouldn't set with a car that has a properly installed system, and no modifications to emissions equipment.





That will not do a thing. Don't even waste the time. The monitors don't care about if you have a power adder or not.



There will always be a difference, and anything +/- 5% is considered perfect.

Heck factory injectors have a tolerance of +/- 6%, and fuel brands alone can vary up to 10+%.... so stack that on top of injector error and you "COULD" have up to a 16% deviation. (not common, but could happen)

So I don’t have a Lund tune, either does the other guy in this thread with the same problem. I simply contacted Lund to get their take on how long the monitors should take to set and they said 100ish miles (same as everyone else but you say thousands of miles).

I didn’t choose to go out for a custom tune, we (Procharger tuning and me) spent months and 9 revisions trying to make the Procharger tune work. You guys contacted me and said you had a local tuner lined up for me since you were unable to fix it yourselves. If you guys would have delivered what I paid for instead of falsely advertising that I could purchase your system and Your tune and have factory drive characteristics only to find out you couldn’t deliver a tune that did that (car accelerated on its own and all of your revisions couldn’t fix that). I wanted a supercharger, I never wanted to meet or deal with a tuner, so I bought your complete system believing you sold what was advertised. If you would have delivered a tune that made my car drive right I would never have had to mess with any other tune or been dealing with trying to get as many miles on my car as I can before my car cannot be registered any more.

How in the world could you possibly help me? What do you have up your sleeve that you already haven’t tried. I’m not arguing just clarifying it wasn’t my choice to go find a custom tune, I was backed into a corner when you couldn’t deliver a functional tune.

Sorry I don’t see any way you could possibly help me? I wish there was, but unless you spell it out for me I just don’t see it, we’ve already proven you can’t give me a tune that makes my car drive right and without that, I don’t see myself passing smog in the next two weeks. Also, I call bullshit on your claim that you rarely send out revisions. Last I counted there were 7 guys on here that bought your system and tune when I bought mine last year, every one of them went through your revisions. All of those users ended up going elsewhere for a custom tune. The difference between them and me is I’m the only one that requires a smog test and now here I am.

I admit I’m frustrated, but really never see the actual help that you are saying you are here to provide, all I see are cool words and clever sentences that give the appearance of helping without ever really doing anything.

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