Full Race?

[DanFish]

If you get a ported head would you have to upgrade the valves, valvesprings, and camshaft also?

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[Full-Race Geoff]

thanks to everyone who came out to Carlisle and said hi! we had a great time and met a lot of people from this forum. We heard from Chip Foose, he LOVES his 2015 ecoboost mustang w/ Full-Race turbo kit. said its his daily driver now (highlight of my weekend)

we got to hang out with some friends at Ford, and they let us know they're releasing an ecoboost mustang drop-in camshaft upgrade later this summer. Its an increase in duration - not lift. Also the control packs for motor swaps will become available in the Fall (Im dying to do a 3.5L EB + 6speed swap)

If you get a ported head would you have to upgrade the valves, valvesprings, and camshaft also?

it depends who ports it and what your goals are. Valvespring rate and height are your limiting factor in achieving higher valve lift. valves need to change if the height of the valvespring changes. mild camshafts for stockish valvetrain become available from ford soon but the big cams are a ways out

 

[dragonacc]

thanks to everyone who came out to Carlisle and said hi! we had a great time and met a lot of people from this forum. We heard from Chip Foose, he LOVES his 2015 ecoboost mustang w/ Full-Race turbo kit. said its his daily driver now (highlight of my weekend)

we got to hang out with some friends at Ford, and they let us know they're releasing an ecoboost mustang drop-in camshaft upgrade later this summer. Its an increase in duration - not lift. Also the control packs for motor swaps will become available in the Fall (Im dying to do a 3.5L EB + 6speed swap)




it depends who ports it and what your goals are. Valvespring rate and height are your limiting factor in achieving higher valve lift. valves need to change if the height of the valvespring changes. mild camshafts for stockish valvetrain become available from ford soon but the big cams are a ways out

How much of a performance improvement do you think the Ford cams would make?

 

[DanFish]

it depends who ports it and what your goals are. Valvespring rate and height are your limiting factor in achieving higher valve lift. valves need to change if the height of the valvespring changes. mild camshafts for stockish valvetrain become available from ford soon but the big cams are a ways out

I was thinking of getting your turbo kit and ported head

 

[Ron@cp-e]

I was chatting with you (Geoff) at the Carlisle event this past weekend
the turbo manifold for the EB looks super trick
tons of engineering and effort into that piece
the work is impressive to say the least:cheers:

can't wait to see what's next from Full Race!

 

[Full-Race Geoff]

I was chatting with you (Geoff) at the Carlisle event this past weekend the turbo manifold for the EB looks super trick tons of engineering and effort into that piece the work is impressive to say the least:cheers: can't wait to see what's next from FullRace!

right on thanks for stopping by, i really enjoyed everyone we met over the weekend. It was more fun than a day at SEMA. The latest generation of our EBM turbo manifold is soo good. I expect we will debut the formal production parts at PRI this year.

How much of a performance improvement do you think the Ford cams would make?

more duration is a great thing - especially on a twinscroll turbo kit like ours or OEM. Ive seen some guys are using aftermarket singlescroll turbos and i dont think the duration is going to help as much, but it should still deliver gains

I was thinking of getting your turbo kit and ported head

Our turbo kit will not be available for about 6 more months, I hope you are patient. We made numerous changes to the kit over the past year and do not want our early adopter customers to have anything outdated or irrelevant in 1 years time. We need to get this kit 100% right, and not worth releasing prematurely. Full-Race is an engineering design and manufacturing company. we do not port heads or build engines - if you wanted to do a head build i suggest talking to Dave Localio @ headgames motorworks, that is where we send all our heads. (they only do head work - and has a better grasp on this cyl head than most)

 

[Tamadrummer88]

right on thanks for stopping by, i really enjoyed everyone we met over the weekend. It was more fun than a day at SEMA. The latest generation of our EBM turbo manifold is soo good. I expect we will debut the formal production parts at PRI this year.



more duration is a great thing - especially on a twinscroll turbo kit like ours or OEM. Ive seen some guys are using aftermarket singlescroll turbos and i dont think the duration is going to help as much, but it should still deliver gains


Our turbo kit will not be available for about 6 more months, I hope you are patient. We made numerous changes to the kit over the past year and do not want our early adopter customers to have anything outdated or irrelevant in 1 years time. We need to get this kit 100% right, and not worth releasing prematurely. Full-Race is an engineering design and manufacturing company. we do not port heads or build engines - if you wanted to do a head build i suggest talking to Dave Localio @ headgames motorworks, that is where we send all our heads. (they only do head work - and has a better grasp on this cyl head than most)

Not to be "that guy", but why 6 more months for your turbo kit? By that time it would already have been a year into development, and I'm sure other vendors and tuning companies would've already had their kits out by then, or well before then. MAP and FFTec already have released kits, why is the Full-Race kit taking so long?

 

[superblur]

I saw you mention Headgames ported some 2.3 ecoboost heads for you guys. I'm sure you guys wont share the ported CFM numbers yet but what did the stock heads flow CFM wise, if you dont mind me asking?

 

[Full-Race Geoff]

Not to be "that guy", but why 6 more months for your turbo kit? By that time it would already have been a year into development, and I'm sure other vendors and tuning companies would've already had their kits out by then, or well before then. MAP and FFTec already have released kits, why is the Full-Race kit taking so long?

producing a properly engineered Investment-Cast stainless exhaust manifold requires serious tooling and that takes time. this is not a traditional cyl head and it should not be approached in the same way -- If youre welding/fabricating this manifold, youre doing it wrong. If youre using a singlescroll undivided turbo, youre doing it wrong. Ive not seen photos of anyone's EBM turbo manifolds or kits off the cars, but I assume they are not investment cast and the shape is compromised from optimal due to material limitations. I also assume thats why nobody has shown photos. Anyone at Carlisle last weekend saw our prototypes first hand and may understand how complex the geometry for this manifold actually is.

we've been working on this project since 2009, one of the longest development curves ive been apart of and one of the more difficult ones. 6 months goes by quickly, in the grand scheme of things. I know our turbokit will set the bar and it makes no difference to me if someone is selling their version before ours is ready. We march to the beat of our drum and get products done on our timeframe. If you can not wait - by all means go with someone else's kit. If you want the best and can wait for ours you will not be disappointed.

I saw you mention Headgames ported some 2.3 ecoboost heads for you guys. I'm sure you guys wont share the ported CFM numbers yet but what did the stock heads flow CFM wise, if you dont mind me asking?

the biggest issue with flowing these heads is you can only open the valve 0.335" (due to the short valves and springs) so on the flow bench thats around 140cfm. once you open the valve more and get aggressive on the portwork *in critical areas* there is tremendous gains to be had. Its also very easy to trash this head if you dont know what youre doing.

 

[DanFish]

Just out of curiousity what is wrong with using a single scroll undivided turbo?

 

[Full-Race Geoff]

Just out of curiousity what is wrong with using a single scroll undivided turbo?

I forgot to post this link previously, it is the precursor work we did with Ford years ago on the prototype ecoboost engines: http://www.docdroid.net/c6j6/fr-singlescroll-vs-twinscroll.pdf.html
^^^ pay attention to the "gamma" %

For the record - I built a singlescroll undivided turbo setup and ran it on our mustang briefly - purely as an experiment to determine the viability or not of that configuration (which comes in at a lower pricepoint). The engine felt D-E-A-D before 3000rpm... OMG lag. Under WOT it looked ok on the dyno chart, but when driving the car behind the wheel the turbo response was just terrible. The car lost that fun to drive feeling I expect in a mustang, and the exhaust/engine note sounded like an unhealthy civic or accord. It may be something that others are interested in, but definitely not something i would ever recommend or sell for this engine

 

[DanFish]

That's some good reading. So is there a way to remove the integrated exhaust manifold and have one like the prototype you made?

 

[Full-Race Geoff]

For those serious about making BIG power, swapping to this head may be a viable option. We have a couple of those heads and turbo manifolds already built, waiting in queue for testing. It will fit on the block, but there are other hurdles. Like ive said before this is a marathon not a sprint - and there is way more than meets the eye with these engines.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

That is interesting reading, but begs a few questions.

1. Seems to be an improvment of uniformity flow index at a 15 deg crank angle...what about the other 705 degrees? Not literally, but the angles of interest...

2. This is showing a twin scroll manifold/merge/collector as superior, but isn't most of this already accomplished within the 2.3 cylinder head itself? The complexity seems to be the merging of 4 ports into one...the head has already done half of the work by merging into 2, correct? Those wanting to use a single scroll would simply need to concern themselves w/ the most efficient way to merge 2 into 1...or am I completely off base?

3. I'm not sure how showing this documentation w/ a separate manifold validates any theories about what will be experienced w/ the 2.3 head and integrated manifold. Seems a bit apples and oranges.

4. Any theories developed, or even substantiated by documents such as these...just how influential will some of these findings be to the end user when they floor their car over a different kit that takes a more conventional approach (simple adapter to single scroll)? I have my theories, but would like your opinion...

Thanks

 

[Full-Race Geoff]

1) we are not allowed to publically release all data, this is all I am permitted to share. it was hard for me to get clearance to share this in fact. Our development is ongoing, and if/when i can post the 2.3L mustang data i will be happy to. I have signed numerous confidentiality docs and can not post info/data to appease

2) no. the 2.3L cyl head has 3 ports not 2. the magic happens in the manifold, moreso in this engine than any other.

3) I think you are missing the point. Im not spouting this off as banter or something open to interpretation. we are continuing to do the same level of development on the 2.3L IEM ecoboost. if you truly care to nerd out on the math, spend time time on borgwarner's matchbot app - there are some youtube videos at the bottom that explain how to use this tool:
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarket/matchbot.aspx

4) I personally ran my 2.3L mustang ecoboost with the same turbo (EFR7163) in both configurations: Twinscroll and Singlescroll. The singlescroll was so laggy/lazy i deemed it a waste of time. Obviously there is one guy is going fast with a CPE singlescroll adaptor and T3 turbo, and it seems MAP likes it also... Differences of opinion are what make the world go 'round, no hard feelings in any way - like i said, if you cant wait for us get something else

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