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Seems Ford thinks it is a good idea to lower the compression on supercharged motors. The Aluminator crate engine for supercharged applications is 9.5 to 1
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SolarFlare

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Lets build a badass motor capable of 1000-1200crank but if we keep compression low and run 22psi of boost and limit it to chocolate milk and dog piss gasoline so we can prove it’s better
 

Angrey

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This is rather exaggerated. Lower your compression to 8/1, run 30 psi, and enjoy 1000+ hp on 93 if that’s your prerogative and you have everything else needed. The Mercedes m139 engine does this and makes over 200 hp/liter. It does it at 9/1 compression and 30 psi on junk gas all day long, so this route has been proven in something more reliable than your typical supercharged mustang.

Or we could be more reasonable and talk about dropping compression from 11/1 to 10/1. Adding 1-1.5 psi boost will recoup anything lost from the compression, but be much safer. Add another 2-3 psi and you’re still safer but making 40-60 more hp on pump gas. IIRC the PBD gt500 (9.5/1) made almost 900 rwhp on 93. Yes, they had to raise the boost to something like 17 psi but 17 psi and 900 rwhp is not possible at 11 or 12/1 on 93 no meth or booster.
IF there's an insistence on 93, I agree. However, I must reassert that E-85 and high compression is the preferable option. For one, if you ever want to ditch the blower, the motor isn't useless. Granted, it's a long shot consideration. And E-85 presents other challenges, but I'd rather have a 12:1 motor on E and make 900, which is VERY VERY SAFE (and more consistent and testable than rolling the dice every tank with 93).

I mean under the low comp high boost approach, why don't we just lower it further and run 87?
Seems Ford thinks it is a good idea to lower the compression on supercharged motors. The Aluminator crate engine for supercharged applications is 9.5 to 1
Because Ford has to satisfy a list of government agencies, regulators and laws as long as this forum. And marketing wise they have to cater to the center of the market, which is middle aged men who want to buy a jacket and be a part of a car club and hand the keys to someone else to change the oil and buy pump 93.

As many of the hardcore enthusiasts and people who modify cars as there are, that's NOT who Ford Motor Company is building cars for.

If you're told as the engineer to make it work with 93, then you're going to LOWER the compression to ensure the motor doesn't nuke on a hot day in high gear and low rpm going uphill lugging the motor.

THAT is what drove the decision to lower compression and run more boost. Not necessary indicative of whether it's the better solution. They also have warranty claims to honor.

The better/easier solution is high compression, low boost on quality/predictable fuel. But to each their own. Honestly, either approach can make more power than the chassis can handle.

I'd rather have a good performing N/A motor and boost it slightly to arrive at the same spot as a poor performing N/A motor that has to spin the blower to the moon and intercool the piss out of it to account for unpredictable fuel.
 

engineermike

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Since I have to raise the boost... I'm assuming my blower will be working a little harder, which means my blower will get warmer... is this downside of lowering my compression with a blower
Good question. You are correct that if you increase boost to make up for power lost due to compression, the blower will be driven harder and discharge temp will be higher. A quick and dirty calculation yields a blower discharge temp of 190 deg F at 100 deg ambient and 10 psi. Increasing boost to 12 psi yields a discharge temp of 204 deg F, an increase of 14 deg.

However, the post-blower temp isn't what is most important. As @sigintel has stated, you are really just moving where the compression takes place, and the end result after the second stage of compression, if you will, is what matters. As you know, after compression the air is passed through an intercooler. I've logged plenty and found my IAT2/MCT (post intercooler) temps are usually around 120 deg F. Lets assume for a second that the MCT for 10 psi boost is 120 F and at 12 psi boost it's 130 deg F. Now that we know the temperature and pressure of the air entering the cylinder, we can model the in-cylinder compression process at 11/1 and 10/1 compression ratio.

At 11/1 compression ratio and 10 psi boost, assuming 120 deg F initial temperature, the final pressure and temperature after compression is 660 psig at 950 deg F. This is before the spark initiates combustion.

At 10/1 compression ratio and 12 psi boost, assuming 130 deg F initial temperature, the final pressure and temperature after compression is 625 psig at 925 deg F. Again, this is before spark.

So, by lowering compression 1 number and raising boost 2 psi, the result is a reduction of 35 psi and 25 deg F in the cylinder before combustion begins, which moves you directionally away from detonation. So how does it make more power, you ask? That has to do with trapped air and fuel mass. The 11:1/10 psi case trapped 0.0028 lb of air in the cylinder while the 10:1/12 psi case trapped 0.0030 lb of air, an increase of 7%. 7% more air means 7% more fuel and 7% more Btu's released that can be converted into horsepower. (A quick validity check: 0.0030 lb/cyl x 4 cyl per rev x 7000 rpm = 84 lb/min, which is about right for 800 crank hp).

Now, what could you expect real-world would be a 4% loss in power and torque due to compression ratio reduction (typically 5% at low compressions and 3% at high compressions) and 20-30 hp/psi boost increase. Assuming 700 rwhp is the 11/1 and 10 psi starting point, it would drop to about 670 with just the drop in compression, but 710+ with the addition of 2 psi boost. The net result is a 10 hp increase but at lower peak in-cylinder temperature and pressure. If you wanted to add another psi boost, the peak in-cylinder temperature and pressure would still be lower (safer) than your starting point, but you could expect another 20+ hp for 730 rwhp total. Who doesn't want 30-40 more hp and increased safety factor? And again, all of this assumes pump gasoline, no meth, no octane booster.

The actual downside is that you will lose some fuel economy, again around 4%.
 

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This whole thread de-rail compression argument is irrelevant. Static compression means next to nothing anymore. Cylinder pressure is greatly affected by the tune and the cam timing. High compression lower boost and junk tune=low output. Lower compression higher boost and junk tune=low output.

Even non cam timing adjustable engines can control the cylinder pressure with custom cams and a grinder who knows what they are doing. Cylinder pressure at the combustion event is directly what affects timing advance capacity, and the resulting power output. Lowering compression just for the sake of adding boost is 30 years ago thinking. Oem's lower compression on most boosted applications just for the sake of reasons stated above like the New Balance wearing CEO who loves getting into the throttle on sunday afternoon without downshifting at 2,400 rpm, and makes 7 figures a year but is too cheap to buy higher octane fuel.

OP you have lofty expectations from 93 pump gas without octane booster. If any way possible find and use E85, or add meth injection.
 

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engineermike

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Lets build a badass motor capable of 1000-1200crank but if we keep compression low and run 22psi of boost so it can do it on fuel available on any corner so we can prove it’s better
There, I fixed it for ya'! ;)
 

SolarFlare

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There, I fixed it for ya'! ;)
An 11:1 or 11.5:1 on 15psi of boost can go anywhere in the country with the fuel on any corner. Add a little octane booster if you gonna get really low quality chocolate milk. Don’t go racing with you Chocolate milk and that’s it. Don’t make it sound like I can’t drive 500 miles to a family get together because a higher compression motor will fall apart cruising on the highway on 93.
 

engineermike

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This whole thread de-rail compression argument is irrelevant. Static compression means next to nothing anymore.....Lowering compression just for the sake of adding boost is 30 years ago thinking.
Physics, thermodynamics, and kinematics have not changed.

Even non cam timing adjustable engines can control the cylinder pressure with custom cams and a grinder who knows what they are doing. Cylinder pressure at the combustion event is directly what affects timing advance capacity, and the resulting power output....
You are absolutely correct that you can retard spark or change cam timing to reduce peak cylinder pressure (PMax) and move away from detonation. But by doing so at the same static CR, you are also reducing mean cylinder pressure (BMEP), which reduces torque and power output. The advantage of low compression is it can maintain high BMEP at a reduced PMax. I've posted it before, but I can show both thermodynamically/kinematically and in practice where this is true. And again, who wouldn't want more power at lower peak cylinder pressure that results in less chance of detonation and lower stress on parts?

Oem's lower compression on most boosted applications just for the sake of reasons stated above like the New Balance wearing CEO who loves getting into the throttle on sunday afternoon without downshifting at 2,400 rpm, and makes 7 figures a year but is too cheap to buy higher octane fuel.
Again, why would the 9.5/1 GT500 not become knock-limited on 93 until 17 psi and 900 rwhp, but the 12/1 GT350 when supercharged hits the knock limit at 150 hp less? The engines are identical in many ways, but not compression ratio. Funny that practice agrees with theory in this case. In fact, we can apply the same adjustments I posted earlier to this case to test them. I posted that every compression number is worth 3-5% power and every psi boost is 20-30 hp. So, assuming the starting point is the GT350 at 10 psi making 750 rwhp, we drop compression by 2.5 numbers, which lowers output by 10% to 675 rwhp. Add 20 hp for every psi and 675+140 = 815 rwhp. It turns out, my math was conservative and actual gains in practice are quite a bit higher.

I could list dozens of examples, but....

EB 3.5 is 10.5/1 and makes 375 hp
EB 3.5 HO is 10.0/1 and makes 450 hp
GT EB is 9.0/1 and makes 660 hp

2.3 EB is 10.0/1 and makes 310 hp
2.3 EB Focus RS is 9.4/1 and makes 350 hp

MB M264 is 10.5/1 and makes 295 hp
MB M139 is 9.0/1 and makes 416 hp
Porsche 911 turbo was 9.8/1 and made 580 hp
Porsche 911 turbo is 8.7/1 and makes 640 hp

Honda 1.5T is 10.6/1 and makes 174 hp
Honda 1.5T SI is 10.3/1 and makes 195 hp

BMW B58 is 11.0/1 and makes 382 hp
BMW S58 is 9.3/1 and makes 503 hp

In other words, every time the factory, even with modern capability to fully control cam timing, spark timing, and a myriad of other things, finds more power by lowering the compression and increasing the boost. Your argument is that the OEM does it just for safety reasons in case the car is abused. Do we not abuse our mustangs by most people's definitions? Do we not see supercharged mustangs fail sometimes? The OEM wanted more power but also to maintain their safety factor, so they lowered compression and added boost. Do we not want to maintain our safety factor while increasing power?
 

engineermike

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An 11:1 or 11.5:1 on 15psi of boost can go anywhere in the country with the fuel on any corner. Add a little octane booster if you gonna get really low quality chocolate milk. Don’t go racing with you Chocolate milk and that’s it. Don’t make it sound like I can’t drive 500 miles to a family get together because a higher compression motor will fall apart cruising on the highway on 93.
Nice straw-man argument. So your solution is to set it up for E85, then put whatever is available in the tank and just remember not to get on the throttle if you happen to not have a can of octane booster. Sounds like a great plan...for you. That's not for everyone, though.

Personally, I don't want to have to search out an E85 station, the nearest of which is 20 miles from my house or add octane booster to every tank. Wouldn't it be awesome if you could put fuel in the tank from any old gas station and know you can pull a 140+ trap without causing a bit of damage to the engine? Sounds ideal to me!
 

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I know...it’s just me, racers must think differently than “engineers”. Your argument is entirely based on limiting what fuel I can use to chocolate milk, you sound like I’m asking for ignite e90 or ethanol one. E85 is readily available pump gas for less than $2 a gallon in most of the US. No reputable shop that tunes this things will tell you to go 9.5:1 for basic customer boosted coyote, sorry. But I’m sure you feel like you know best. Looking forward to your 9:1 compression build thread, track outing, dyno sessions and races...put your money where your keyboard is.
 

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Physics, thermodynamics, and kinematics have not changed.



You are absolutely correct that you can retard spark or change cam timing to reduce peak cylinder pressure (PMax) and move away from detonation. But by doing so at the same static CR, you are also reducing mean cylinder pressure (BMEP), which reduces torque and power output. The advantage of low compression is it can maintain high BMEP at a reduced PMax. I've posted it before, but I can show both thermodynamically/kinematically and in practice where this is true. And again, who wouldn't want more power at lower peak cylinder pressure that results in less chance of detonation and lower stress on parts?



Again, why would the 9.5/1 GT500 not become knock-limited on 93 until 17 psi and 900 rwhp, but the 12/1 GT350 when supercharged hits the knock limit at 150 hp less? The engines are identical in many ways, but not compression ratio. Funny that practice agrees with theory in this case. In fact, we can apply the same adjustments I posted earlier to this case to test them. I posted that every compression number is worth 3-5% power and every psi boost is 20-30 hp. So, assuming the starting point is the GT350 at 10 psi making 750 rwhp, we drop compression by 2.5 numbers, which lowers output by 10% to 675 rwhp. Add 20 hp for every psi and 675+140 = 815 rwhp. It turns out, my math was conservative and actual gains in practice are quite a bit higher.

I could list dozens of examples, but....

EB 3.5 is 10.5/1 and makes 375 hp
EB 3.5 HO is 10.0/1 and makes 450 hp
GT EB is 9.0/1 and makes 660 hp

2.3 EB is 10.0/1 and makes 310 hp
2.3 EB Focus RS is 9.4/1 and makes 350 hp

MB M264 is 10.5/1 and makes 295 hp
MB M139 is 9.0/1 and makes 416 hp
Porsche 911 turbo was 9.8/1 and made 580 hp
Porsche 911 turbo is 8.7/1 and makes 640 hp

Honda 1.5T is 10.6/1 and makes 174 hp
Honda 1.5T SI is 10.3/1 and makes 195 hp

BMW B58 is 11.0/1 and makes 382 hp
BMW S58 is 9.3/1 and makes 503 hp

In other words, every time the factory, even with modern capability to fully control cam timing, spark timing, and a myriad of other things, finds more power by lowering the compression and increasing the boost. Your argument is that the OEM does it just for safety reasons in case the car is abused. Do we not abuse our mustangs by most people's definitions? Do we not see supercharged mustangs fail sometimes? The OEM wanted more power but also to maintain their safety factor, so they lowered compression and added boost. Do we not want to maintain our safety factor while increasing power?
You keep posting examples but it's a false comparison. It doesn't elude to what those motors COULD make if ran with better fuel and higher compression. And your inquiry about safety again, is predicated UPON 93 as the fuel. My E-85 tune is safer than your 93 tune. Period. End of debate. I don't care WHAT you've done to the compression or spark or components, it's inherently safer because I can at least VERIFY the relative quality of the fuel going into the motor. And not for nothing, virtually every tuner would tell you they feel "safer" tuning a 12:1 compression motor (with more timing) on E-85 with boost than a lower compression motor on 93 and boost. Simply because despite compression, E-85 is more resistant to preignition.

It seems we're arguing 2 different things. We keep trying to tell you that yes, for shitty fuel, low compression and higher boost is preferential to high compression and lower boost. Yes, for the nth time, yes.

HOWEVER, for those who aren't saddled to SHITTY FUEL, higher compression and lower boost is preferable.

If that were NOT the case, then the OEM's would have tuned to 87 and just lowered the compression even further.
 

engineermike

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@SolarFlare and @Angrey, I find myself once again explaining that the OP specifically stated "I'll be on pump" in post #1. Had he stated he was building it for E85, I would not have responded at all. Pump gas isn't for everyone but neither is E85. And, I never said that pump gas will make more power or is safer than E85. The OP set forth the conditions and most responded by saying don't lower the compression and, oh yea ,don't run pump gas either.

I honestly can't tell if you guys lost track of the OP's question, don't understand what I'm posting, or are intentionally creating staw-man arguments.
 

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I cant believe this really needs to be said.....build the proper motor, break it in on a conservative pulley, when he can swing a fuel system then pulley down. This cant be this difficult can it??
 

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@SolarFlare and @Angrey, I find myself once again explaining that the OP specifically stated "I'll be on pump" in post #1. Had he stated he was building it for E85, I would not have responded at all. Pump gas isn't for everyone but neither is E85. And, I never said that pump gas will make more power or is safer than E85. The OP set forth the conditions and most responded by saying don't lower the compression and, oh yea ,don't run pump gas either.

I honestly can't tell if you guys lost track of the OP's question, don't understand what I'm posting, or are intentionally creating staw-man arguments.
You're obviously very sharp and knowledgeable but again, I think we're arguing two different things past each other. One of your initial assertions was "lower compression and higher boost is better" which I only PARTIALLY agree with and that's with the asterisk * (with less than optimal fuel). I don't agree that's a widely accepted or true statement when all fuel options are laid on the table. As I said, if THAT were true, then there'd be no need to pay 30% more for premium gasoline, you could just drop the compression by a couple more points and run 40 psi and according to you, be safer for it.

That's not the case however, and the OEM's are operating off the limitations of a mass produced vehicle for fuel considerations. Hence the 93.

MOST of us who go through the pain and cost of building a motor aren't interested in "mass produced" limitations (like pump gas).

In summary, lower comp is only preferred with fuel limitations.
 

engineermike

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@Angrey , the very first sentence I posted in this thread was “If you want max power on e85, leave it at 11/1“ so I’m not sure how I am being misunderstood.

As for the premium vs regular gasoline comment...if someone wanted to run 8’s on 87, more power to them. I would push the low compression/more boost argument to them as well. I think it would be one heck of an accomplishment! Me, I can get 93 at any station so it’s not my goal, but that’s just me.

Again, I never argued that 93 has the potential to make more power than E85, just as I wouldn’t argue that 87 has the potential to make more power than 93.
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