Why aren't more TT installation?

[Z_Rocks]

TT is a great addition to the GT, but why so few people are doing it? In the past, lots of Mustangs and Camaros have been getting TT, but now I'm surprise to see so few... Why?

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[jared89]

Well the ss550 has only been out, what not even a year. So the tt kits have been out like 7 months? Plus with a almost $10k price it is not for everyone.

 

[LHousePhoto]

I was at a Mustang event, and everyone was trash talking the turbocharged Mustang because "A Mustang should be supercharged"

I don't agree with that school of thought, but there are some people who think all Mustangs only came with V8's and can only run a supercharger.

 

[z06psi]

Honestly? I have a turbo car and it was just easier and less invasive to install a ProCharger on the Mustang.

 

[Whipple SC]

1. Never will be 50-state legal, CARB or EPA.
2. Significantly more install time.
3. Never will have the same drivability as a PD SC. Not arguing about peak torque or HP numbers, very few understand the difference "under the curve" so to speak. Daily driving, part throttle, highway, daily traffic... WOT is only a small portion of the equation.
4. Really doesn't make that much extra power on stock, daily driven, pump gas applications to offset the disadvantages. Better suited for higher hp, higher boost levels.
5. More expensive, especially when adding the install and custom tuning.
6. Significantly harder to tune on the 2015/2016 Coyotes.

 

[Kryckter]

1. Never will be 50-state legal, CARB or EPA.
2. Significantly more install time.
3. Never will have the same drivability as a PD SC. Not arguing about peak torque or HP numbers, very few understand the difference "under the curve" so to speak. Daily driving, part throttle, highway, daily traffic... WOT is only a small portion of the equation.
4. Really doesn't make that much extra power on stock, daily driven, pump gas applications to offset the disadvantages. Better suited for higher hp, higher boost levels.
5. More expensive, especially when adding the install and custom tuning.
6. Significantly harder to tune on the 2015/2016 Coyotes.

It does take longer to install and does cost more. For more power and more future expansion, sounds like a good deal to me! As far as tuning, the only twin turbo kit out there comes with tuning so it being "harder" to tune shouldn't matter to the customer...

I love boost... All forms of boost. But this peak torque and hp number as well as the daily driving comment I would disagree with as well as the doesn't make that much extra power...

Mine drives like stock, doesn't buck or surge and is daily driven. Lets look "under the curve" and really compare numbers...

Compare my graph of the quick spool 55's on about 10 lbs of boost and pump gas to the whipple graph on 12lbs and pump gas. Lets say we start a roll race at 30 or 50, starting about 3500 RPM's. We would be making about the same power, mine may be up about 25rwhp and 25rwtq. Mines making 100ish more ft lbs of torque at 4k than most PD blower cars. Also at 5k it's making almost 200rwhp more and at 6k over 100hp more! So when mine shifts to the next gear I will be making somewhere around 150 MORE RWHP - That will win races... It makes about 650rwhp from 5000 up, no need to spin it to 7500 to get that high HP number

The turbo vs. supercharger debate has gone on for years and will continue forever. Pick what you like and enjoy! I don't believe there is any bad boost. Its all FUN :cheers:

 

[Whipple SC]

It does take longer to install and does cost more. For more power and more future expansion, sounds like a good deal to me! As far as tuning, the only twin turbo kit out there comes with tuning so it being "harder" to tune shouldn't matter to the customer...

I love boost... All forms of boost. But this peak torque and hp number as well as the daily driving comment I would disagree with as well as the doesn't make that much extra power...

Mine drives like stock, doesn't buck or surge and is daily driven. Lets look "under the curve" and really compare numbers...

Compare my graph of the quick spool 55's on about 10 lbs of boost and pump gas to the whipple graph on 12lbs and pump gas. Lets say we start a roll race at 30 or 50, starting about 3500 RPM's. We would be making about the same power, mine may be up about 25rwhp and 25rwtq. Mines making 100ish more ft lbs of torque at 4k than most PD blower cars. Also at 5k it's making almost 200rwhp more and at 6k over 100hp more! So when mine shifts to the next gear I will be making somewhere around 150 MORE RWHP - That will win races... It makes about 650rwhp from 5000 up, no need to spin it to 7500 to get that high HP number


The turbo vs. supercharger debate has gone on for years and will continue forever. Pick what you like and enjoy! I don't believe there is any bad boost. Its all FUN :cheers:

You can't compare boost for boost, we lower compression and pass durability testing as a result. We can make more power with stock cam scheduling or more aggressive, would make great dyno HP but we don't feel its safe in the real world.

Nobody argues the turbo can't make more power, it certainly can but you missed the point. You're talking about racing, not what I referenced. When you drive, your tip in, light throttle to speed up 10mph, etc. is extremely different with a PD vs turbo. This is the area under the curve. Under the WOT curve.

As for difficult tuning? That's why its not common along with price, install issues, legality, etc. While some might ike the challenge, the masses prefer parts to be pre-tested, pre-designed, pre-engineered with detailed instructions, robust and performing calibrations all in one package that they can order. Most shops want to install something that they won't have to keep working on, can make set prices vs losing on 30+ hour installs that they can never properly bill for. While some want to take a more difficult route to be different or have something unique, that is the opposite of mainstream.

We don't knock turbo's, they have a place in the market and we actually have some projects involved with them. But until the price, packaging, calibration, install, etc. gets more customer friendly, you just won't see that many.

 

[Z_Rocks]

Firstly, thanks to Dustin and Kryckter for offering their valuable and hands on experience.

I brought up this question, because I've driven sport/performance cars for 40 years and my passion has never changed. I'm a boost junkie specially on how that boost was made.

I've had Cenrti, PD S/C, Single/Twin Turbo on small and V8 engines. And each provided a great benefit to it's own application.

Centri was my first S/C on a V8. When I picked up the car from the installer and began to drive it 3 days after I had dropped off the car, first thing I noticed in 2.5 to 3K RPM, as if there is a drag on the engine, I could feel for the amount of gas I'm giving it, the car was not responding like it was 3 days before. As I pushed more, then the boost slowly began to come one, but by that time I was over the street's speed limit. When I talked to my installer, he said welcome to "Parasitic Loss" in S/C world.
I ended up spending over $12K to have a car that felt more sluggish than before I went F/I. I hated it. It was a Paxton 2000.

Once that car was sold, I went with a Newer model of the same car and decided to go with PD S/C. The 2.3 liter had a much different characteristics. It was more like an ON/OFF power, The power would come on so fast, that I would be spinning my wheels in first and second gear on a 6.2 liter engine. I could easily loose a race with a Honda Civic due to lack of traction. This was the opposite of Centri that would take a high RPM to wake up.

My next car was a V8 SRT that I actually worked on the design part of the custom Twin Turbo kit with a shop. When I drove the car at first, without boost, there was ZERO "Parasitic Loss" or drag on the engine. It drove the same (or perhaps better due to turbos feeding air rather than the engine sucking air) when it was NOT on boost yet.

For testing on F/I feedback, I would press on gas and hold it at certain level (I did that on the other two as well), but in the TT, the turbos would begin to produce more air due to engine's higher RPM. This EXTRA air, would then feed the engine back, which would raise the RPM again and new RPM would spin the turbos more.... EVEN by holding the pedal at the same level, you could see the car would be making more and more power on it's own due to ripple effects.

This is so refreshing, that not only I wasn't loosing power due to "Parasitic Loss", but the car just wanted to GOOOOOO by itself. This power build up gives a totally different acceleration and time to hook up than my first two S/C experience. I loved that "Free" flowing power.

To make around 700RWHP on a S/C, you'd have to give up an extra 80 to 90 HP (at crank) due to "Parasitic Loss", and that's why I agree with Kryckter, why at different RPMs, the TT was producing more overall power, because there was no drag or loss on the engine.

Yes, the S/C was easier to install, was cheaper to put on, less maintenance, but the fun factor of a TT, pays off for the extra $$$ and work.
This has been my personal experience with F/I and I wanted to see why others haven't looked into these differences.

 

[Z_Rocks]

You can't compare boost for boost, we lower compression and pass durability testing as a result. We can make more power with stock cam scheduling or more aggressive, would make great dyno HP but we don't feel its safe in the real world.

Nobody argues the turbo can't make more power, it certainly can but you missed the point. You're talking about racing, not what I referenced. When you drive, your tip in, light throttle to speed up 10mph, etc. is extremely different with a PD vs turbo. This is the area under the curve. Under the WOT curve.

As for difficult tuning? That's why its not common along with price, install issues, legality, etc. While some might ike the challenge, the masses prefer parts to be pre-tested, pre-designed, pre-engineered with detailed instructions, robust and performing calibrations all in one package that they can order. Most shops want to install something that they won't have to keep working on, can make set prices vs losing on 30+ hour installs that they can never properly bill for. While some want to take a more difficult route to be different or have something unique, that is the opposite of mainstream.

We don't knock turbo's, they have a place in the market and we actually have some projects involved with them. But until the price, packaging, calibration, install, etc. gets more customer friendly, you just won't see that many.

I always admire Whipple team for providing factual data as long as I can remember. And I get the points very clearly and take it into consideration for my next car(very likely a GT, unless GT500 shows up soon). So, your participation is very much appreciated!

 

[olaosunt]

My experience .
I went back and forth between a PD blower ( never really considered a centrifugal )but decided on TT on my 2015 GT's.
I have had several supercharged mustangs including a 2006 GT with a 1.9 Roush blower,a 2011 GT500 with a 2.3 TVS and still have a 2012 with snake bite TVS/8 rib upper /15 % lower good for 20psi( and a lot of heat) on a built motor with Boss heads.
I loved the amount of low end torque the the GT500 made and kept throwing boost at the 12 GT to try and make it feel the same but it never did.
I have also had a lot of "belt issues" with the 12( finally fixed but have to use a 6 rib belt with the 8 rib to keep it from shredding).I swore I was "done " dealing with belts issues so decided on TT this time around
I also have a daily driven M235 with incredible low end torque ( Max at 1850 rpm - due to small turbos) so I was hoping for close with the 55's/ Hellion kit .
I was a little bit disappointed with the way it drove on 6 psi.Nothing like my M235i but when it came into boost it was fun.
However now compared to my 12 with the TVS it just did not have the "instant gratification " I was seeking.lol
I was so eager to turn up the boost but my inpatience and lack of experience with boost Controllers led to a melted piston.
Car is getting an alluminator block( with head studs/billet crank sprocket -comes with billet oil pump gears) as we speak .I am hoping that with the right octane/fuel (not sure I want to do a return system like my 12 to run E85 but have boost pump and ID 1000's)will allow me to turn the boost up safely ( going to stick with waste gate springs) and will give me the experience I am looking for ( and ET times).
The damage was due to no fault of my tuner who had provided an excellent tune based on the base boost level and logs but I will be looking to do at least a remote dyno tune before I turn up the boost again.I think the auto tune also needs a lot more work based on the ET of
11.4@129 mph .
If I don't get the experience I am hoping for at higher boost levels then I am going to go back to a PD on the car.
I really like the torque curve on the 3.2 KB but the whipple looks to be another great option.
I would not consider the TVS since I already have one on my 12.

 

[tws123]

Ill be glad when I can make a decision! I was ready to buy the whipple with the 10 percent discount but I have always wanted turbos! I have no experience with any forced induction but I like that turbos have less parasitic loss? no belts to shread? more power at less boost? hopefully a nice sound from the bov? I think maybe quieter? I wold prefer a fast quieter car.

 

[H35]

Turbos are definately quieter and smoother.
I've had many different blowers and they all made power but turbos are just a different ball game.
And yes, my kit is up for sale but only to help a family member out with a problem.

 

[TwinTurboMustang.net]

Twin Turbo is a little more money. No one disagrees with that. Some of the points argued are more of opinion then absolute truth. The turbos are far more efficient. In fact a solid turbo set up shouldn't even be compared to any supercharger. Way different ball game. And I'm willing to bet that someone will soon put together a excellent system that is easier to install than a supercharged set up. Just wait....

 

[Reds197]

I have had both in a coyote. Auto = turbo and Manual = Blower IMO.
I you are not building the motor any of them can make plenty of power to pop a stock block.

 

[HELLION TURBO]

TT is a great addition to the GT, but why so few people are doing it? In the past, lots of Mustangs and Camaros have been getting TT, but now I'm surprise to see so few... Why?

Hello.

There are actually a multitude of our TT setups on the road.

We took delivery of our 2015 GT on Oct. 4th of last year and had it at SEMA on display less than a month later. We have been tuning and refining it since then. It has been an in stock kit since the beginning of this year. We started so early that other manufacturers contacted us to use various parts for new development for the show. We have also been instrumental in the progression of the tuning for the GT, with some of our solutions helping supercharger companies as well. All aftermarket performance companies benefit from tuning advances.

We have a 100% complete system that will make more power and torque, and in our opinion, drive better than any other power adder on the market.

If anyone would like to contact us for more information please email us at [email protected] or call 505-873-4670.

Team Hellion

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