Whipple tune pulling power at temp

[sigintel]

That knock limiting might be saving your motor currently. You are on lower octane and have a real heat problem and the tune is pulling power to save the motor from detonation death. (+1 Whipple failsafe tune)

Hold off on running it hard till you are sure that IC pump is all good and any other issues.
If you have Reische 170, on flat highway you should be 185-205CHT MAX after 15 min warm up and 10 minutes highway flat.
Any flat highway near you? Where you at in CO? (Used to live Louisville, Eagle,Durango: flat highway can be hard to come by soemtimes..).

When you start the car, can you see turbulence in the IC coolant level/fill port?
This is indication of IC pump running.

If you open the IC fill neck while the pump is running, you can ruin your paint by hosing coolant all over; maybe have hose ready to wash off just in case?

Also, there are advantages to using the Ford Motorcraftt orange prediluted: namely its been durability tested for metal passivation/corrosion, head gasket metallurgy, water pump seals, lower system pressure per temperature, etc.

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[TooSoonJunior]

FWIW -

After installing my kit, I was consistently running CHT around 210-220, even with the 170 thermostat installed. I took a peak in the tune and from Whipple the tune calls for the fans to regulate engine coolant temps (not CHT) around 212*F. Usually CHT are about 10* hotter than that when the car is poking around, not moving much.

This shocked me quite a bit, and was one of the first changes I made to the tune, I set it to target an engine coolant temp of 180* and now my CHT hovers between 185 and 190 95% of the time.

I also noticed adding my RTR grills helped both my intake air temps and CHT temps recover quicker from stop and go traffic or idling for any period of time.

 

[Ruiner46]

IC pump is definitely running, I can see the coolant flow in the fill tube. I can check for kinks this weekend, but seeing the flow I didn't think there were any. The only questionable spot is the 180 U bend at the exchanger inlet, and I'll have to take off the undertray to take a look.

I am running prediluted Motorcraft orange in both the radiator and the intercooler. I am driving I-25 between Denver and Longmont daily, which has some flat spots. The only time I see this issue is when it is over 90 outside, and I'm on the interstate with the AC on. I think that the AC condenser heating up might be part of the issue.

Maybe I'll drive it for a few more days before turning off the knock limiting. However, I really don't think 220 CHT is all that hot. That's like 210 ECT and should be in the safe operating range I would think. I am running 91 octane with a 3.625 pulley, but I think that's ok at this altitude. I could try adding some Octanium or something I suppose. I was just thinking that the knock limiting feature is probably too sensitive, and it is pulling a bunch of throttle when it could be pulling timing instead. I guess I need a way to datalog and see how bad the knock is.

I wish I was seeing the temps you guys mention like 205 CHT max. Anyone else live in 90+ heat and drive for an hour on a highway and still see under 205? I was thinking about removing the seal at the rear of the hood and seeing if I can get more of the underhood heat out.

 

[Ruiner46]

FWIW -

After installing my kit, I was consistently running CHT around 210-220, even with the 170 thermostat installed. I took a peak in the tune and from Whipple the tune calls for the fans to regulate engine coolant temps (not CHT) around 212*F. Usually CHT are about 10* hotter than that when the car is poking around, not moving much.

This shocked me quite a bit, and was one of the first changes I made to the tune, I set it to target an engine coolant temp of 180* and now my CHT hovers between 185 and 190 95% of the time.

I also noticed adding my RTR grills helped both my intake air temps and CHT temps recover quicker from stop and go traffic or idling for any period of time.

How are you making changes to the target engine temp? Hp tuners or something?

The main weird thing about all this that still bothers me is that the car seems fine in stop and go traffic. It's during a long drive on the interstate where I see peak temps. I see it get fairly hot in traffic, with high IAT, but as soon as I start moving a bit, it drops pretty quickly. But a long interstate drive with the AC on will end up at 210-220 CHT.

 

[TooSoonJunior]

IC pump is definitely running, I can see the coolant flow in the fill tube. I can check for kinks this weekend, but seeing the flow I didn't think there were any. The only questionable spot is the 180 U bend at the exchanger inlet, and I'll have to take off the undertray to take a look.

I am running prediluted Motorcraft orange in both the radiator and the intercooler. I am driving I-25 between Denver and Longmont daily, which has some flat spots. The only time I see this issue is when it is over 90 outside, and I'm on the interstate with the AC on. I think that the AC condenser heating up might be part of the issue.

Maybe I'll drive it for a few more days before turning off the knock limiting. However, I really don't think 220 CHT is all that hot. That's like 210 ECT and should be in the safe operating range I would think. I am running 91 octane with a 3.625 pulley, but I think that's ok at this altitude. I could try adding some Octanium or something I suppose. I was just thinking that the knock limiting feature is probably too sensitive, and it is pulling a bunch of throttle when it could be pulling timing instead. I guess I need a way to datalog and see how bad the knock is.

I wish I was seeing the temps you guys mention like 205 CHT max. Anyone else live in 90+ heat and drive for an hour on a highway and still see under 205? I was thinking about removing the seal at the rear of the hood and seeing if I can get more of the underhood heat out.

We had some 85-90* days here and I was out driving for a few hours at a clip, slow moving like 35-40mph most of the time, never went over 195* CHT. Again though only after I tweaked the tune. Before the change I was seeing identical temps as you. But I was also NOT getting any power limiting.

I am looking at the Whipple tune and I don't see any engine coolant related torque reduction until the engine coolant temps hit 250* F, at which point itll start pulling about 4* of timing. Looks like intake temp of 175* and itll pull about the same amount of timing. However I cannot see all the added nifty stuff Whipple does in the BCM of the car, so those limits could be much lower.

I would start by getting the Flare tool up and running and turn off the CHT Limiting. If you notice no difference, turn off Overload and Inj DC limiting. If still no difference noted, then hate to say it but most likely you have an octane issue, meaning its finding knock and pulling timing. DO NOT turn off Knock limit, it may mean the end of your motor in short order.

 

[Ruiner46]

Since those other safety features only pull timing, and knock limit pulls throttle, I think it has to be the knock limiting. There is a clear reduction in power with almost no supercharger whine, which indicates throttle being pulled to me.

It's funny how now you guys think the knock limiting is saving my motor when every other thread I read about it says to turn it off and let timing be pulled instead. For instance, this thread:
http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1369783#post1369783

There are several other threads where Whipple_SC says to turn off knock limiting. It would be great if someone at Whipple would show up in this thread and comment. I think some amount of knock is ok, it's how the tune learns and adapts timing. What I don't know is if I'm seeing safe or unsafe levels of knock, and there is no way to know without a way to datalog. I sure would be happy if Whipple would add that feature ;)

 

[TooSoonJunior]

Since those other safety features only pull timing, and knock limit pulls throttle, I think it has to be the knock limiting. There is a clear reduction in power with almost no supercharger whine, which indicates throttle being pulled to me.

It's funny how now you guys think the knock limiting is saving my motor when every other thread I read about it says to turn it off and let timing be pulled instead. For instance, this thread:
http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1369783#post1369783

There are several other threads where Whipple_SC says to turn off knock limiting. It would be great if someone at Whipple would show up in this thread and comment. I think some amount of knock is ok, it's how the tune learns and adapts timing. What I don't know is if I'm seeing safe or unsafe levels of knock, and there is no way to know without a way to datalog. I sure would be happy if Whipple would add that feature ;)

No amount of knock is ok, seriously NONE. The tune is designed to command a timing value well below any tested value where they found knock, then slowly increase the timing until the knock sensor start to pick up some noise (not knock, but high cylinder pressures). It should never be able to increase timing enough to actually cause a knock event. The knock limiting feature is designed so that if the PCM is commanding a timing value that Whipple has tested to know is WELL within the normal limits of good octane gas and the knock sensors are still picking up higher than normal values, then pull the throttle back because something is wrong.

Because you are guessing that it is the throttle being closed, and not actually logging it, I don't want to go along and agree. pulling 4 or 5 degrees of timing will feel the same as closing the throttle 30-40%.

Both Inj DC limiting and Overload Limiting will close the throttle, nothing to do with spark.

Because Knock Limiting is still based on the amount of KNOCK the PCM is picking up, means the motor is knocking. I don't care that it closes the throttle in response, that's immaterial. I am more concerned for the fact that it is knocking.

 

[TooSoonJunior]

Whipple makes it very clear in the Flare tool guide when it is ok to turn off Knock Limiting:

​

Whipple only recommends in cases where knock limiting is cutting power with known good gas (91 or higher) to toggle this option to [FONT=Tahoma,Tahoma][FONT=Tahoma,Tahoma]OFF[/FONT][/FONT]. This will disable throttle control for knock control.

 

[Ruiner46]

Ok, point taken about knock. I still don't think it's DC limiting or Overload because the car runs very well including 4th gear when temps are low. I drove this morning in 70 degree ambient and interstate temps were about 205. A 4th gear pull felt great and no sign of pulling power. It only seems to happen above CHT of 220. I'll leave knock limiting on and experiment more with things to get CHT down.

I'd also like to confirm somehow that the intercooler is doing its job. Maybe I do have a restriction or kink in the lines or something along those lines. It could be the high CHT is caused by high IAT2 maybe, idk.

 

[TooSoonJunior]

You got three choices on the intercooler thing. First, you can tap into the harness of the IAT sensor Whipple installed in the lower manifold and log the output voltage. Google "GT500 air temp sensor voltage" and you will find the conversion of volts to temperature. Either way though that requires logging, not sure you are setup to log in general? Need an SCT, nGage, or HP Tuners.

Second way is to waste $120 and buy the VMP harness adapter, which moves the IAT 1 sensor (the one in your dash cluster and in datalogs as intake air temp, in stock form it is built into the MAF sensor) to the lower intake manifold of the blower. You can then take a TEMPORARY look at your IAT temps post blower by looking in the dashboard. I would only do this TEMPORARILY as your tune will not know that your IAT 1 reading is now POST blower and will likely result in a lot of failsafes getting triggered. Not a huge deal, and if you are just cruising for a while not going WOT just to see your post blower temps, shouldn't cause much of an issue. If your intercooler pump or fluid was not flowing, I would expect your post blower temps to be easily 175-200* once heat soaked after a long drive.

The last way, and easiest, is go buy an infrared heat gun (like $50-75 on amazon) and take the car out for a long freeway ride, and once CHT get hot, pull over, pop the hood, and shoot the gun at the intercooler lines leading to and from the lower manifold (under the intake tube and throttle body). The upper one should be quite a bit hotter than the lower one (its the discharge from the intercooler brick) by a good 20*F. Try to shoot the laser pointer of the heat gun as close to the motor as you can on the tube. If your intercooler wasn't flowing, both tubes would be 175-200*, same as test 2 above would show.

 

[Ruiner46]

Ok, I took some data today on the intercooler. I hooked up a voltmeter to the IAT2 sensor while driving home and monitored the voltage.

The hottest I ever saw it was while I was sitting in stopped traffic and my IAT1 shot up to 135-140. During this, my IAT2 was 150 (1.2V)

During the highway cruise, IAT1 was about 100 and IAT2 mostly stayed around 135 (1.5V). The worst I saw was during some traffic that slowed us down to about 35mph and IAT2 hit 145 (1.28V). During the slowing of traffic, my CHT jumped up to 222. While cruising, it was mostly in the 210-215 range.

Is 35 over IAT1 typical for highway cruising? I would think with all the airflow, the IAT2 should be something like 10 over IAT1. Still not sure what's going on, but at least the intercooler seems to be working.

Today I also noticed that there are some precipitants forming in my coolant reservoir for engine coolant. I'm thinking this is because I used 2 bottles of water wetter with the stock premixed coolant. I have to run 50/50 here due to cold winters. I wish I hadn't followed that part from the Whipple manual. Anyone know a good way to flush all the engine coolant out so I can get rid of the water wetter?

 

[TooSoonJunior]

Still way way hotter than I would have expected post intercooler. Something isn't right. I will be logging mine same way over the weekend and will share my results to compare. Nice work either way bud

 

[Whipple SC]

Check IC system first, you might have an air bubble.

Turn knock limiting off. Its in the instructions, we always recommend turning this off unless you are in a country with very poor gas.

Air temp, coolant temp and CHT all factor to timing, airfuel and torque, but do not close the throttle. Only knock limiting closes throttle.

 

[mustang1]

Check IC system first, you might have an air bubble.

Turn knock limiting off. Its in the instructions, we always recommend turning this off unless you are in a country with very poor gas.

Air temp, coolant temp and CHT all factor to timing, airfuel and torque, but do not close the throttle. Only knock limiting closes throttle.

How reliable is our 93 octane?

How fast and accurate is the IAT2 sensor?

Ok, I took some data today on the intercooler. I hooked up a voltmeter to the IAT2 sensor while driving home and monitored the voltage.

The hottest I ever saw it was while I was sitting in stopped traffic and my IAT1 shot up to 135-140. During this, my IAT2 was 150 (1.2V)

...

How did you do measure the IAT2 with a voltmeter? What voltmeter is this?

 

[Ruiner46]

Any multimeter that measures voltage will work. I made an extension harness between the sensor and the connector so that I could tap into the wires leading to the sensor without cutting into the wire harness. Then you just measure the voltage across the sensor pins and convert the voltage into a temperature using the info online as TooSoonJunior described.

I can tell you from watching the voltage that the sensor reacts very quickly. So quickly that I think it cools a bit too much when you give it immediate throttle.

Here's a graph I made for the temp to voltage conversion based on the info I found online. I don't know for sure that it is accurate.

As for my problem, looks like I'll be trying to flush the radiator this weekend, and messing with the intercooler to make sure the flow isn't restricted anywhere.

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