Levels Performance Intercooler Data

[PRG3k]

All concerns I had about upgrading. I'll be testing the MAP race as soon as I get it which is similar to the Levels unit with half of it sitting behind the crash bar. My theory about why it heats up faster than a stock location are

1) more surface area, which is a benefit for dissipating heat but also allows more heat to be absorbed faster.
2) Heat rises. A stock mount intercooler is 100% under the radiator, heat can and does radiate in all directions but when it hits air, the air becomes less dense and rises. If you ever had one of those small BBQ grills you can put the cover on it and in a few minutes feel the heat rising off of it to where you can hardly get close, Move your hand to the bottom and you almost have to be touching it to feel the heat.
The levels (and the MAP Race etc.) all cover part of the radiator, heat has a much easier time reaching adjacent rather than lower areas and the top half of the IC is higher than the bottom half of the RAD.

When you are moving all these problems go away, but they are liabilities in traffic.

I'm also concerned that half the core is blocked, Id rather have 50% of the core doing 20% than 40% of the core doing 10% or less.

My torture testing will tell all and I am prepared to hand the win to the street core if the Data leads me there.

Thanks for the reply. I do not feel my car is special in any way and don't think my experience should be weird or atypical to any other cars running an upgraded intercooler. Maybe the fact that I have really beat on that smaller MAP unit for a while in serious Florida heat gives me a different perspective than others that went straight to a large core from the stock intercooler. I glance and take in the charge air temp stat on the Accessport every 5 minutes while in the car and have for about a year now.

The characteristics of the two intercoolers are very night and day. I ran around town on the MAP unit all day long in mid 90's heat. Spent the afternoon swapping the Levels out and changing the oil to where I finished at around midnight when temps were 15 degrees cooler. And right out of the garage after a couple very spaced out stoplights, charge temps were already bouncing between 110 and 120. It surprised me on that test drive and went back into the garage kind of scratching my head.

On the flip side, I also noticed that it recovered a lot faster than the MAP unit. 5 or 6 degrees would fall out of it just from a lazy run through 1st gear. And giving it 50% throttle through a taller gear would dissipate close to another 10 degrees. The MAP unit would react with about half that temperature drop under the same circumstances.

Now remember I have not done any WOT logs on E30 yet with the Levels to see if the playing field levels out (pun) under full throttle. My suspicion is that it would.

In my honest opinion I think its close to a wash. The MAP unit seems slow to rise, slow to fall. And the Levels with more heat soak but a more effective reacting core. Depends on the driving style you want and power you are pushing.

I also want to look into utilizing channeling for the lower bumper. Ford really seems like they were locked in a room for months on end thinking out the front airflow for this car; Whether it be the stock airbox that works so well, to the active grille shutters that there's been enough debate on.

One thing about the shutters, someone mentioned this a while ago, was that if you could keep the housing but remove the active fins that moved up and down, there seemed to be a 'channel' or guide for the air into the stock intercooler location. The shutters are gone and now, since I installed the Levels, also gone are that mess of black plastic fins and flaps (that guide air to the stock airbox and cover the stock IC endtanks) which hook onto the AC condenser. There is a lot of empty space around the intercooler now but is it helping, I'm not sure.

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[Glenn G]

Thanks for the reply. I do not feel my car is special in any way and don't think my experience should be weird or atypical to any other cars running an upgraded intercooler. Maybe the fact that I have really beat on that smaller MAP unit for a while in serious Florida heat gives me a different perspective than others that went straight to a large core from the stock intercooler. I glance and take in the charge air temp stat on the Accessport every 5 minutes while in the car and have for about a year now.

The characteristics of the two intercoolers are very night and day. I ran around town on the MAP unit all day long in mid 90's heat. Spent the afternoon swapping the Levels out and changing the oil to where I finished at around midnight when temps were 15 degrees cooler. And right out of the garage after a couple very spaced out stoplights, charge temps were already bouncing between 110 and 120. It surprised me on that test drive and went back into the garage kind of scratching my head.

On the flip side, I also noticed that it recovered a lot faster than the MAP unit. 5 or 6 degrees would fall out of it just from a lazy run through 1st gear. And giving it 50% throttle through a taller gear would dissipate close to another 10 degrees. The MAP unit would react with about half that temperature drop under the same circumstances.

Now remember I have not done any WOT logs on E30 yet with the Levels to see if the playing field levels out (pun) under full throttle. My suspicion is that it would.

In my honest opinion I think its close to a wash. The MAP unit seems slow to rise, slow to fall. And the Levels with more heat soak but a more effective reacting core. Depends on the driving style you want and power you are pushing.

I also want to look into utilizing channeling for the lower bumper. Ford really seems like they were locked in a room for months on end thinking out the front airflow for this car; Whether it be the stock airbox that works so well, to the active grille shutters that there's been enough debate on.

One thing about the shutters, someone mentioned this a while ago, was that if you could keep the housing but remove the active fins that moved up and down, there seemed to be a 'channel' or guide for the air into the stock intercooler location. My Levels looks great in there but the shutters are gone and also are that mess of black plastic fins and flaps which hook onto the AC condenser. There is a lot of empty space around the intercooler now but is it helping, I'm not sure.

Your findings are pretty much In line with my theories on the way these work. One thing I didn't think about were the shutters as I still have them on mine.

What this may all boil down to is that it is a 'racing' style intercooler that shines at the track but is compromised for street duty because if you ever come to a stop at a race and its not over, you are doing it wrong.

As modders we tend to think race>street not really thinking about the sacrifices needed to get those extra 10ths of a second. For example I really wanted a Performance pack car just because of the brakes. After test driving both I realized I didn't like the shorter gearing, the suspension or the wheels & tires that much and I haven't done a track day in years. The smaller base brakes were just as confidence inspiring hauling me down from 130 mph as the PP brakes while being less grabby at low speeds. The enhanced fade resistance of the PP brakes will not be tested even on the Autobahn. So I got a base and swapped out the wheels and suspension for what I wanted for about $1k. The remaining 1k I saved going to mods.

The street core may be the best compromise out there.
(I still really like the look of the PP brakes so may swap them in for pure vanity)

 

[PRG3k]

(I still really like the look of the PP brakes so may swap them in for pure vanity)

Not just vanity...they're so good. lol

I guess the only other intercooler out there with a substantially different design is the ATM with its stepped core.

 

[TheLion]

I think you guys hit this one on the head, but I will add a few points. While the levels has more mass, it also has more surface area exposed to higher air temperatures as Glenn mentioned because not only does it have greater mass, but also more of that mass exposed to hotter air while idle. Also the upper portion sights right between the core support and AC condenser, so when idling it's going to absorb more radiated thermal energy from those components, which I think Glenn also mentioned.

I think we need to clarify terms however. Heat soak, I think is misapplied in this case and is causing confusion, as the term is intended to identify a specific deficiency under a specific condition, at least from how I understand it. Heak soak is a condition where the intercooler does not have enough thermal transfer capability to adequately exchange thermal energy from the inlet air to ambient air passing by under full or heavy engine load. Even the stock IC will not heat soak at lower loads or for short runs becuase the amount of thermal energy it can transfer is adequate for those given loads or time frames. However, when idling, none of these inter coolers are able to transfer any thermal energy (other than radiated) from the intake (turbo outlet) air as there is no almost no air flowing by externally. They will simply heat up to the ambient temperature like any other object. How fast they do that is dependent on location, mass and surface area exposed, but they will all get there at some point.

What you are seeing is simply the air to air exchanger absorbing heat from the stagnant ambient air, aka equalizing with ambient. The Levels IC has more exposed surface area due to it's shape, size and location. It also will see slightly higher ambient temperatures as more of it's mass sits higher up, hot air rises and concentrates to the upper confines of the engine bay.

The MAP Street (Stage 1) unit absorbed less energy because the majority of it's mass is mounted at the lowest point in the car which is also the furthest way from radiating heat sources, so it's going to see the coolest ambient air temperature when not moving, it's also the most well shielded location from hot rising air from the pavement as well.

Even though the Levels or other larger front mount IC's may see a temperature rise quicker than the MAP Stage 1 unit at idle and even a slightly higher temp, it will drop much quicker as there's far more surface area to transfer energy from the hot turbo outlet air to the passing ambient air. As you noted, once you start moving, you will see the difference. We're also talking maybe 10~15 degrees here and still well under the 150F limit. You will make proper timing, boost and throttle as you A. not at the safeguard limits and B. because the temps immediately drop.

Now I can't say how much of an advantage the stock ducting gives the stage 1's. It may provide enough additional flow to make up for their lower mass and cooling area on a stock engine for just street or strip use on a relatively stock car. I would expect even the ducting won't make up the core surface area and density in track conditions or extended high speed runs like the 5th gear autoban pull however...also 130F sounds about right for ambient air in that region of the car during idle, heck, the inside of your car (aka where you sit) can hit 145F + on hot days just from the sun! We should expect the highest temps when idling to be about ambient.

Does anyone have a cheap glass thermometer(s)? You could tape two of them under the hood, one at the crash bumper / core support level, another at the bottom on the plastic ducting. Go to a parking lot and idle for 5 to 10 minutes or until you IC air temp hits 130F. Then go check the thermometers and see what they are reading. I'll be the upper one is around 130F and the lower one 110F~120F...which would explain the temperature difference you see when idling.

But when you load the engine, given the same ambient temperatures and humidity I would expect to see the Levels Street IC with the lead. WOT dnyo runs prove this point, even when they are 4, 5 and 6 in a row.

So if you have a Stage 1 and aren't going to push very high power levels over stock I see no reason to upgrade. If you haven't already purchased one, I would do as Adam (of Adam Tuned) suggested and go with the largest IC you can buy. He has done quite a bit of testing and he said the smaller Stage 1 units, while much better than the factory IC, just can't compete with the full sized frontal units when pushed multiple WOT runs, this gap increases the more power you push through your engine or the worse the ambient conditions (aka higher air temp and lower speeds). We can't get around that the larger IC's have more exposed surface area to oncoming air.

It's common to see 70 to 75F temp drops on the full sized units vs about 35 to 50 on the smaller cores, so it shows!

 

[TheLion]

One last thought and ill stop posting i promise ;-) All of the full size front mount ics will behave similar to the levels while all of the smaller bottom mount stage 1 ics will behave similar to the MAP Street core.

Conditions and core design go hand in hand. All the full size cores are exposed to hotter air while idle while the smaller bottom mount stage 1 units have a cooler ambient environment due to their location. Thats why the L cores like the atm are the best blend. You get core volume of the larger ics but a better overall location and no blockage by core support / bumper.

 

[JamesinLittleSilver]

I wonder if the thermal dynamics of the (all quality)stage 1 ICs make up some for the size difference with the larger race ICs? If you have 40% of the IC tucked in behind the bumper and in front of the radiator are you messing with engine cooling while not increasing turbo cooling fully proportionately?

 

[PRG3k]

Thats why the L cores like the atm are the best blend. You get core volume of the larger ics but a better overall location and no blockage by core support / bumper.

I'm very interested in that design now, having tried both. I wish there was more feedback from real users of the ATM but it seems like there are not nearly as many sold as the others I have. Its kind of a unicorn, no web page and only price quotes through PM and facebook page.

This is a good discussion, I wish it was in the intercooler data thread for more to see. My fault.

 

[TheLion]

I'm very interested in that design now, having tried both. I wish there was more feedback from real users of the ATM but it seems like there are not nearly as many sold as the others I have. Its kind of a unicorn, no web page and only price quotes through PM and facebook page.

This is a good discussion, I wish it was in the intercooler data thread for more to see. My fault.

It is my understanding the ATM is out of production. You could try to e-mail them and see if they are still making them and at what price point. I may very well do that myself even though I have a levels on order as the ATM represents the best design hands down.

Also see the Wagner, which is also an L-core (however it's not a rounded bar design like the ATM): http://www.wagner-tuning.com/Competition-Intercooler-Kit-EVO1-Ford-Mustang-2015-200001073_p_215.html

But, if you look at their pressure drop curve, it actually has a lower pressure drop than the stock IC at the same flow rates or the conversely, higher flow rates at the same pressure drop point. That's impressive!

 

[TheLion]

Yet here is their EVO2, which has even better cooling according to their own charts, guess what, it's NOT an L core but a traditional large surface area core just like the Levels, Full Race, MAP Race etc.: http://www.wagner-tuning.com/Competition-Intercooler-Kit-EVO2-Ford-Mustang-2015-200001074_p_217.html

I think we can conclude the L cores represent a good blend between a full sized race type core and a factory box (stage 1 core). But again, I keep going back to the price point of the Levels Street Gen 3's with cast end tanks, the quality is now just as good as anything from FFTec, Full Race etc. Only companies like Wagner have a slightly higher quality core mainly due to the coating / finish process.

 

[TheLion]

I'm very interested in that design now, having tried both. I wish there was more feedback from real users of the ATM but it seems like there are not nearly as many sold as the others I have. Its kind of a unicorn, no web page and only price quotes through PM and facebook page.

This is a good discussion, I wish it was in the intercooler data thread for more to see. My fault.

The ATM is no longer in production from what I understand. Wegner makes an L core IC similar in design to the ATM:

http://www.wagner-tuning.com/Competition-Intercooler-Kit-EVO1-Ford-Mustang-2015-200001073_p_215.html

I'm still considering dropping the coin on a different IC than the Levels since I haven't gotten anything from Nick yet...but there really doesn't seem to be anything at that price point that matches the Levels performance:

http://www.vmpperformance.com/Levels-Intercooler-Upgrade-for-EcoBoos-p/lv-ebint.htm

Scroll down to see the temp drops from stock. Remember, the biggest gains will come from the lowest average temps. While stage 1 units may have a lower temp while idling in traffic due to their location and size, they simply don't have as much cooling area and when you push the car where it really matters, the temperatures prove it. However, Stage 1 I think is more than enough for stock or lightly modded stangs, aka at Stage 1 power levels...

I'm thinking about cutting up the front shutters in order to preserve as much ducting as I can with the Levels. The shutters are the size restriction to my understanding, not the ducting. I can then buy an extra set of shutters to keep around in case I ever need to return to factory configuration.

That is the one thing I really like about Stage 1 IC's over the larger cores, you can retain the factory shutters and the car looks bone stock unless you start taking things apart.

 

[Jasber]

I'm dizzy from all of this data, but really need to upgrade my stock IC. If ATM isn't producing, Levels has huge lead time and MAP may or may not be in the same league as others that are providing good heat soak, I have no idea which direction to go for my DD (potential track or race in the future) here in the sweltering Dallas heat!

Completely and totally open to suggestions!

 

[paullyd210]

It is my understanding the ATM is out of production. You could try to e-mail them and see if they are still making them and at what price point. I may very well do that myself even though I have a levels on order as the ATM represents the best design hands down.

Also see the Wagner, which is also an L-core (however it's not a rounded bar design like the ATM): http://www.wagner-tuning.com/Competition-Intercooler-Kit-EVO1-Ford-Mustang-2015-200001073_p_215.html

But, if you look at their pressure drop curve, it actually has a lower pressure drop than the stock IC at the same flow rates or the conversely, higher flow rates at the same pressure drop point. That's impressive!

I have the ATM IC, I love it, and don't mind doing some datalogging.

What conditions do you want to see?
Like what Ambient temp? In san antonio currently we see 80-100 F everyday so your options are limited haha
Right when the car warms up? or after driving for x minutes?
and what parameters?

Just let me know.

 

[TheLion]

I'm dizzy from all of this data, but really need to upgrade my stock IC. If ATM isn't producing, Levels has huge lead time and MAP may or may not be in the same league as others that are providing good heat soak, I have no idea which direction to go for my DD (potential track or race in the future) here in the sweltering Dallas heat!

Completely and totally open to suggestions!

I'd take a look at the SpeedFactory IC as an alternative to the Levels: https://www.speedfactoryracing.net/...boost-mustang-600hp-dual-backdoor-intercooler

It is more expensive, but not by much. Full Race I think runs about 650~700 so it's starting to get up there with the other higher tier full sized IC's. However the Levels and SpeedFactory IC's seem to be the two outliers in terms of cost vs. performance. They have a Stage 1 price but a Stage 2 performance if get my drift.

If you go Levels, I'd expect a lead time of 3-5 weeks at the present. I ordered my Levels at the beginning of July, I spoke with Nick about two weeks ago and he estimated 2-3 weeks yet back then. His production is getting faster due to the cast end tanks (less welding), BUT his volumes have also gone up quite a bit which off-sets the time savings in terms of lead time.

 

[neodark]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, sorry if I state something already mentioned. But, I can tell you the main advantage to the levels core over map is recovery, specially during a pull.

You want to look at charge temps as you do the pull. Now, I personally haven't owned the MAP IC, but form the logs I've seen in this forum the larger core of the levels causes a much bigger drop during a pull and for longer as it goes into boost. (Good intercoolers do this, bad ones don't drop temps during a pull). While the MAP does cause a drop, it's much less significant before CATs start to rise.

Levels CATs Curve (Green)

Map CATs Curve (Purple)

 

[Glenn G]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, sorry if I state something already mentioned. But, I can tell you the main advantage to the levels core over map is recovery, specially during a pull.

You want to look at charge temps as you do the pull. Now, I personally haven't owned the MAP IC, but form the logs I've seen in this forum the larger core of the levels causes a much bigger drop during a pull and for longer as it goes into boost. (Good intercoolers do this, bad ones don't drop temps during a pull). While the MAP does cause a drop, it's much less significant before CATs start to rise.

Levels CATs Curve (Green)

Map CATs Curve (Purple)

Sorry not comparable graphs, that pull on the MAP core was 75 -145 mph in 5th gear for which it did better than expected, the levels pull looks like 3rd.

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