JLT Intake system highlights, video results.

[firestarter2]

If you have fords factory map you dont need to do all that work all the tables are populated already for you. Its really how far you want to go.

A small change in a/f and timing can be done fairly easily and gain power. If you want to control the variable cam timing etc that a much bigger bear but I dont know if they do that.

You are making it overly complex.

I'm not.

First of all, I dont know what kind of software Ford uses and how their stock tune is. My experience is limited to my M5 which uses dual Bosch DMEs, it's pretty high end stuff. But I'm guessing GT350 is no slouch and it must be similarly equipped/coded.

M5 has various tables, tables are like 2D matrixes that allow the computer to lookup values given X/Y axis values, such as atmospheric pressure vs temperature MAF lookup or humidity etc. My car has pretty advanced lookup tables that define injector pulses for a given MAF and MAP reading (I'm guessing mustang must have a MAP sensor as well) and same goes for Lambda sensors (there are four oxygen sensors). Think of the DME as a giant table lookup software that constantly does nested lookups (one lookup leading to the next, so on).

Now the problem isn't the ability to modify those tables, that anyone can do. The problem is coming up with the values that goes in those tables. Some of these tables require wind tunnels as well as the car having to be tested at different parts of the world. BMW always tests their car in places like Arizona, las vegas, sweeden, finland, africa, etc.

A tuner will never be able to match a factory engineer's ability to fine tune this software. They will maybe get 60% close which will make 90% of the population happy because very little people know this stuff as much as I do. But still, it doesnt mean what they are doing is right or reliable. No one knows the long term impacts of such modifications (i.e. 50-60k miles).

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[MCarsFan]

If you have fords factory map you dont need to do all that work all the tables are populated already for you. Its really how far you want to go.

A small change in a/f and timing can be done fairly easily and gain power.

You are making it overly complex.

You are misunderstanding me.

You dont need to repopulate all those tables. Yes, the stock tune already has them populated. However, you should repopulate them with the new intake, only then it will be a proper tune.

Just modifying A/F ratios is not a proper tune. If those tables had no weight, then the factory tune would just precalculate them and only use A/F values as input points.

 

[firestarter2]

You are misunderstanding me.

You dont need to repopulate all those tables. Yes, the stock tune already has them populated. However, you should repopulate them with the new intake, only then it will be a proper tune.

Just modifying A/F ratios is not a proper tune. If those tables had no weight, then the factory tune would just precalculate them and only use A/F values as input points.

Whos to say whats proper. If its safe and doesn't blow up altering stock is fine. Will it make as much power as redoing it from scratch maybe not. You can always pay for that if you want I suspect the little extra you get wont be worth the time it takes to do.

 

[65sohc]

I'm not.

First of all, I dont know what kind of software Ford uses and how their stock tune is. My experience is limited to my M5 which uses dual Bosch DMEs, it's pretty high end stuff. But I'm guessing GT350 is no slouch and it must be similarly equipped/coded.

M5 has various tables, tables are like 2D matrixes that allow the computer to lookup values given X/Y axis values, such as atmospheric pressure vs temperature MAF lookup or humidity etc. My car has pretty advanced lookup tables that define injector pulses for a given MAF and MAP reading (I'm guessing mustang must have a MAP sensor as well) and same goes for Lambda sensors (there are four oxygen sensors). Think of the DME as a giant table lookup software that constantly does nested lookups (one lookup leading to the next, so on).

Now the problem isn't the ability to modify those tables, that anyone can do. The problem is coming up with the values that goes in those tables. Some of these tables require wind tunnels as well as the car having to be tested at different parts of the world. BMW always tests their car in places like Arizona, las vegas, sweeden, finland, africa, etc.

A tuner will never be able to match a factory engineer's ability to fine tune this software. They will maybe get 60% close which will make 90% of the population happy because very little people know this stuff as much as I do. But still, it doesnt mean what they are doing is right or reliable. No one knows the long term impacts of such modifications (i.e. 50-60k miles).

So there is no way that Lund, Livernois, AED, or any other non-factory entity can tune an engine. Your "lesson" is riddled with inaccuracies and basically worthless.

 

[cattivo]

How did the tune turn out?

Well results were fairly disappointing. After a couple of days at the shop, the net result is an approximate 15 HP increase. I don't have those after sheets, and have questions myself to resolve. That's all for now.:shrug:

 

[MCarsFan]

So there is no way that Lund, Livernois, AED, or any other non-factory entity can tune an engine. Your "lesson" is riddled with inaccuracies and basically worthless.

I am beginning to seriously believe that people in forums only read bits and pieces of a post and get what they want out of it and respond in a way to simply bash the other person.

Let me repeat, less text this time.

1- Tune of a car consists of tens of lookup tables as well as other DME logic (pure code)
2- "Tuning" a car may mean altering a single table and only 2 parameters within that table of 250 parameters OR it may mean redoing the entire thing or the majority of it. Both of them is called "tuning" and unfortunately most coding illterate people won't understand the difference. They ll see this guy sells a tune with the intake and feel good about it without knowing the EXTENT of that tune.
3- Unless until the entire tables and other relevant logic is revisited, a tune is not a proper tune.
4- Cars are like human body. Every thing in them are interconnected and pieces have complex relationships like the organs in our body do. You cannot just change two of the A/F ratios in a table and call it a tune. This is as bad as saying to a person trying to lose weight to "cut the carbs and eat protein" rather than coming up with a proper workout plan and the rights carbs and so on.

Do they have a tune? I'm sure they do. Is it a proper tune, i.e factory quality? Hell no. No one does, most of these tuning companies have a handful of staff supporting so many other projects, they dont have multi million dollar project budgets like Ford does. I dont understand why this is so hard to understand.

90% of their customers wont care and wont want to know to the level of detail I explained, so this is probably fine for many people. Its not fine for me because I spent a lot of time learning this stuff and how things work behind the scenes.

 

[firestarter2]

I am beginning to seriously believe that people in forums only read bits and pieces of a post and get what they want out of it and respond in a way to simply bash the other person.

Let me repeat, less text this time.

1- Tune of a car consists of tens of lookup tables as well as other DME logic (pure code)
2- "Tuning" a car may mean altering a single table and only 2 parameters within that table of 250 parameters OR it may mean redoing the entire thing or the majority of it. Both of them is called "tuning" and unfortunately most coding illterate people won't understand the difference. They ll see this guy sells a tune with the intake and feel good about it without knowing the EXTENT of that tune.
3- Unless until the entire tables and other relevant logic is revisited, a tune is not a proper tune.
4- Cars are like human body. Every thing in them are interconnected and pieces have complex relationships like the organs in our body do. You cannot just change two of the A/F ratios in a table and call it a tune. This is as bad as saying to a person trying to lose weight to "cut the carbs and eat protein" rather than coming up with a proper workout plan and the rights carbs and so on.

Do they have a tune? I'm sure they do. Is it a proper tune, i.e factory quality? Hell no. No one does, most of these tuning companies have a handful of staff supporting so many other projects, they dont have multi million dollar project budgets like Ford does. I dont understand why this is so hard to understand.

90% of their customers wont care and wont want to know to the level of detail I explained, so this is probably fine for many people. Its not fine for me because I spent a lot of time learning this stuff and how things work behind the scenes.

If it works why isnt it fine? Knowledge seems to be a handicap for you versus a advantage (based on your threads)

 

[MCarsFan]

If it works why isnt it fine? Knowledge seems to be a handicap for you versus a advantage (based on your threads)

In my M5, everything was fine. And for the 99% of the M5 owners, its fine as well. If I never bothered to data log and ask questions, I would still be using that intake today.

It was when I started data logging and realized car was running 15% rich and lean and the MAF readings were extremely volatile I realized something was off. These things are extremely fragile (modern engine components). You will most likely experience no problems and if and when something happens, it will be catastrophic. This is not the kind of thing that gives any warning signs like smoke coming out of a tail pipe. When injectors fail, in a matter of seconds they can destroy an engine.

Anyways, the other reason why I made such a big deal out of this is because I realized (during my research) that these tuners dont really have the proper education and experience to conduct these modifications. The person I met at BMW had mechanical engineering degree and an aerospace engineering degrees and have been working at BMW all his life. I just felt very uneasy using this thing on a 120k car made by a guy who probably learned everything he did at an indy shop.

No disrespect intended but this is kind of like comparing a surgeon to grandma's home remedy to fix someone up.

 

[MCarsFan]

Let me also add, as I mentioned before, I have no experience with this car or Ford. I dont know their DME setup and I have no idea what kind of a tune this car comes with. To top it off, M5 is an extremely complex car, it has the inherent BMW complexity plus its twin turbo setup adds additional stuff to the mix. It has 13 coolers, intercoolers, multiple MAP sensors, etc. I believe shelby is much simpler because is naturally aspirated and is a much simpler car. So maybe for this car its not such a big deal.

On my M5, even changing the axleback rear exhaust caused the car to richen by 3-4%, thats how sensitive the tune is.

 

[firestarter2]

In my M5, everything was fine. And for the 99% of the M5 owners, its fine as well. If I never bothered to data log and ask questions, I would still be using that intake today.

It was when I started data logging and realized car was running 15% rich and lean and the MAF readings were extremely volatile I realized something was off. These things are extremely fragile (modern engine components). You will most likely experience no problems and if and when something happens, it will be catastrophic. This is not the kind of thing that gives any warning signs like smoke coming out of a tail pipe. When injectors fail, in a matter of seconds they can destroy an engine.

Anyways, the other reason why I made such a big deal out of this is because I realized (during my research) that these tuners dont really have the proper education and experience to conduct these modifications. The person I met at BMW had mechanical engineering degree and an aerospace engineering degrees and have been working at BMW all his life. I just felt very uneasy using this thing on a 120k car made by a guy who probably learned everything he did at an indy shop.

No disrespect intended but this is kind of like comparing a surgeon to grandma's home remedy to fix someone up.

Not all tuners are created equal. Some are quite Knowledgeable some less so.

This car has a wide band (4 wire i'm guessing) so you can do the same logging without much difficulty.

Take what you learned and apply it (monitor a tune if you get one) vs saying all tunes are bad.

Im not familiar with the M5 but if you are running a tune and you are not running excessively lean or rich and there isnt detonation(timing being pulled) you should be ok on most cars.

If you are the type where you worry about running 12.0:1 AF instead of 11.9:1 then probably shouldnt touch your car

 

[firestarter2]

Let me also add, as I mentioned before, I have no experience with this car or Ford. I dont know their DME setup and I have no idea what kind of a tune this car comes with. To top it off, M5 is an extremely complex car, it has the inherent BMW complexity plus its twin turbo setup adds additional stuff to the mix. It has 13 coolers, intercoolers, multiple MAP sensors, etc. I believe shelby is much simpler because is naturally aspirated and is a much simpler car. So maybe for this car its not such a big deal.

On my M5, even changing the axleback rear exhaust caused the car to richen by 3-4%, thats how sensitive the tune is.

Im not familar with BMWs on a Toyota(denso) the ECU can adjust for such a small change. I was always surprised(and annoyed) at how fast the car learned.

To your point a turbo car is harder to tune then a NA engine since you have to tune in vacuum and boost and the turbo forces you to focus on parts of the map a NA car will never hit.

 

[65sohc]

Well results were fairly disappointing. After a couple of days at the shop, the net result is an approximate 15 HP increase. I don't have those after sheets, and have questions myself to resolve. That's all for now.:shrug:

91 octane is killing you.

 

[stanglife]

M5cars - you're making a lot of assumptions, not surprisingly.

 

[JN66]

Well results were fairly disappointing. After a couple of days at the shop, the net result is an approximate 15 HP increase. I don't have those after sheets, and have questions myself to resolve. That's all for now.:shrug:

That seems incredibly low. Please let us know if you get that fixed.

 

[65sohc]

Let me also add, as I mentioned before, I have no experience with this car or Ford. I dont know their DME setup and I have no idea what kind of a tune this car comes with. To top it off, M5 is an extremely complex car, it has the inherent BMW complexity plus its twin turbo setup adds additional stuff to the mix. It has 13 coolers, intercoolers, multiple MAP sensors, etc. I believe shelby is much simpler because is naturally aspirated and is a much simpler car. So maybe for this car its not such a big deal..

Then there's your answer. A simpleton can tune a Ford.

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