Gt 5.0 vs 2017 Camaro 1LE

[richtor]

Ford have failed to test the GTPP against the old gen 1le camaro! Instead they benchmarked it against their own Boss 302 and supposedly Porsches (:frusty Yeah Right!!! They totally ignored the main competition, even though they had the chance. Now seeing how good the six gen camaro is and i m sure they don't want to get humiliated, they are actually on the right track this time! Lessons learned is a really good thing!

Dont get hang up on the z28 vs gt350, Ford is making ton of money with the regular mustang gt's and ecoboosts. Because of those sales they have money to invest on the gt350's and gt500's. Its their foundation. If you have a better foundation, you will have a better structure! Don't forget that.

You answered your own question. They are doing great with the regular gt because they are making mustangs that are comfortable at the track. Why a tp ran a 52 at sears point while other owners lap their 991 GT3 and c7 z06 at 58 and 57 respectively.

Why in the world would they want to make the drive so rough and put tires that can only last 5k miles like the old 1le?

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[68fbjjz109]

Ford have failed to test the GTPP against the old gen 1le camaro! Instead they benchmarked it against their own Boss 302 and supposedly Porsches (:frusty Yeah Right!!! They totally ignored the main competition, even though they had the chance. Now seeing how good the six gen camaro is and i m sure they don't want to get humiliated, they are actually on the right track this time! Lessons learned is a really good thing!

Dont get hang up on the z28 vs gt350, Ford is making ton of money with the regular mustang gt's and ecoboosts. Because of those sales they have money to invest on the gt350's and gt500's. Its their foundation. If you have a better foundation, you will have a better structure! Don't forget that.

The Mustang being on it's own platform has it's own business case, that is justified before program approval. Ford expected and forecast against 100k units.

It has done much better than that. Domestically and abroad. I imagine the GT500/Boss429/Mach1 or whatever it is rolling around may have got additional funds due to the overall success of the Mustang and the GT350. However that is not retroactive, but it does set up a better foundation to move forward from.

One thing alot of people don't realize is just because we think this car is in a certain competitive segment; or should be stacked up against a certain car, doesn't mean the manufacturer does or cares.

Dave Pericak on Autoline stated Ford knew where the Camaro is going. The writing is on the wall due to long lead times. Just because the Camaro went one way doesn't mean the Mustang has to follow or be constrained by it.

One of the perks of making your own vehicle segment is you get to define that. Ford is sticking to their "one Ford" thing, and is incremental in nature. Because the Mustang is it's own business case it is constrained by that. With some unplanned changes to the front suspension that is likely the reasoning for the conservative approach in 2015. I am sure trying to launch for the 50th also didn't help.

Outside of Ford Performance, the Mustang team may not really care that much about the Camaro. It may not be the internal target, or the car to beat.

Some of us just think it is.

I know the Mustang is not really on the radar for the Challenger, but the Camaro is the exact opposite. However that makes sense given the similarity in what vehicles FCA builds on the L platform, and where the alpha based cars come in in terms of weight, and what FCA struggles with.

 

[Sasuketr]

You answered your own question. They are doing great with the regular gt because they are making mustangs that are comfortable at the track. Why a tp ran a 52 at sears point while other owners lap their 991 GT3 and c7 z06 at 58 and 57 respectively.

Why in the world would they want to make the drive so rough and put tires that can only last 5k miles like the old 1le?

Because a performance package equipped gt is not a regular gt. Same as a 1le camaro is not a regular camaro. You also know this is true. Currently a 1le camaro can hang with a track pack gt350 for almost 20 grand less. A zl1 which can be bought for 62 grand is way above the gt350 and gt350r performance. The problem is, even Ford comes up with a car that can outmatch a zl1 or zl1/1le, how much do you think its going to cost? If they try to sell a car that can barely beat a zl1 or even say zl1 1le, for that price, they better be sure the car can also beat a corvette zo6, and grand sport.

 

[Todd15Fastback]

Some folks magazine race 24x7. Go out and race your car and see what you're capable of. That's where the fun is at. Then you keep improving over time.

Quit bench racing...good grief.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Because a performance package equipped gt is not a regular gt. Same as a 1le camaro is not a regular camaro. You also know this is true. Currently a 1le camaro can hang with a track pack gt350 for almost 20 grand less. A zl1 which can be bought for 62 grand is way above the gt350 and gt350r performance. The problem is, even Ford comes up with a car that can outmatch a zl1 or zl1/1le, how much do you think its going to cost? If they try to sell a car that can barely beat a zl1 or even say zl1 1le, for that price, they better be sure the car can also beat a corvette zo6, and grand sport.

Your missing the mark. The GT350R beat the Z28. It had the luxury of going second. Now the ZL1 and the 1LE is doing damage because it has the luxury of knowing what they had to beat. Your talking like Ford cant build a world class car. The GT destroyed the worlds finest at la mans. When the GT500 comes out it will be better than the ZL1. So it goes.

 

[richtor]

Because a performance package equipped gt is not a regular gt. Same as a 1le camaro is not a regular camaro. You also know this is true. Currently a 1le camaro can hang with a track pack gt350 for almost 20 grand less. A zl1 which can be bought for 62 grand is way above the gt350 and gt350r performance. The problem is, even Ford comes up with a car that can outmatch a zl1 or zl1/1le, how much do you think its going to cost? If they try to sell a car that can barely beat a zl1 or even say zl1 1le, for that price, they better be sure the car can also beat a corvette zo6, and grand sport.

Hang where? What zl1 do you speak of the last generation or the current one. According to Al O it doesn't not keep if with the 350 track pack with either car. Al O said the new zl1 is 3 seconds faster than the old at Milford which puts it 2 seconds slower than the z28.

Zl1 way above the 350, according to who? The 29 it put down in Germany was not even oem stock. I have yet to see a zl1 to 350 comparison. Yes it should be faster, far better power to weight but it won't be that much faster. I have yet to hear the rave reviews for it like I did the gt350. Evidently those who pay for these cars agree with me. They keep paying way more for the so called inferior car. That's a laugh!

 

[Norm Peterson]

You answered your own question. They are doing great with the regular gt because they are making mustangs that are comfortable at the track. <snip>

Why in the world would they want to make the drive so rough and put tires that can only last 5k miles like the old 1le?

The PP was never as seriously track-intended as the 1LE, so it was dialed back a bit here and there to be more widely marketable.

If you're in that uppermost 2% category that the 1LE was aimed at, ride firmness (and maybe even tire life expectancy) isn't going to bother you like it probably would people who just barely make it to what perhaps 30% of the people are comfortable with - aka PP-level tuning.

It's OK for anybody to understand that the 2% level is too much for them, but that still doesn't make the PP wheel, tire and suspension tuning as sharp as it perhaps could have been for those who appreciate such things.


Norm

 

[02gtnh]

Hang where? What zl1 do you speak of the last generation or the current one. According to Al O it doesn't not keep if with the 350 track pack with either car. Al O said the new zl1 is 3 seconds faster than the old at Milford which puts it 2 seconds slower than the z28.

Zl1 way above the 350, according to who? The 29 it put down in Germany was not even oem stock. I have yet to see a zl1 to 350 comparison. Yes it should be faster, far better power to weight but it won't be that much faster. I have yet to hear the rave reviews for it like I did the gt350. Evidently those who pay for these cars agree with me. They keep paying way more for the so called inferior car. That's a laugh!

Looks to me 3 sec faster is faster then the Z28. http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/milford-road-course

You have proof the zl1 at the ring wasn't stock? Have you not seen what Pobst did with it at the track.

 

[richtor]

Looks to me 3 sec faster is faster then the Z28. http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/milford-road-course

You have proof the zl1 at the ring wasn't stock?

Thanks for the link.
Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 unknown 1:53.71
Chevrolet Camaro 1LE Package unknown 1.58.85

Subtract 3 seconds. This would make the new 1le 1.55.7. 1.55 is still 2 seconds slower than 1.53.

I wouldn't not want to see the 350TP on cup 2 vs the z28 let alone on the same tire.

Proof? We've gone over this time and time again. Multiple people from multiple backgrounds and forums state the same thing. Shaved tires, non oem parts, you can't get a production zl1 to run that time. Then you have gm themselves running the 13 z28 and not bearing the 12 zl1 time of 7:42 only to comeback amo th later in bad weather to take 4 seconds off. Or that production ZR1 that was 12 secs slower than gm time. Proof is everywhere if you care to look.

 

[02gtnh]

Thanks for the link.
Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 unknown 1:53.71
Chevrolet Camaro 1LE Package unknown 1.58.85

Subtract 3 seconds. This would make the new 1le 1.55.7. 1.55 is still 2 seconds slower than 1.53.

I wouldn't not want to see the 350TP on cup 2 vs the z28 let alone on the same tire.

Proof? We've gone over this time and time again. Multiple people from multiple backgrounds and forums state the same thing. Shaved tires, non oem parts, you can't get a production zl1 to run that time. Then you have gm themselves running the 13 z28 and not bearing the 12 zl1 time of 7:42 only to comeback amo th later in bad weather to take 4 seconds off. Or that production ZR1 that was 12 secs slower than gm time. Proof is everywhere if you care to look.

Look back at your quote, you said ZL1 not 1le.:headbonk: so your facts are hearsay from guys who know guys that are on forums. So it was on the internet, it must be true. If what you say is true, there would be a lot of uproar in the media about the ring time, but there has been none. Only guys on forums.

 

[richtor]

My bad. I was speaking of the l1e.


Edit: Internet, must be true...

Which part the 7.29 it must be true or
GM 2009 ZR1 time of 7.26.4 vs production vehicle with professional driver time of 7.38?

 

[02gtnh]

Oh trust me, almost every car equipped with a cage see improvement. But, with these new S550's, they get far less Benefit as the S197 did. When they are outfitted with cages, the S197 and S550 can be very close.

As for the diminished returns, you speak of lateral Gs. Well, a trick Chevy used on the SS was to reduce its overall potential to acquire grip, therefore chassis flex would go unnoticed. Once they put tires on it, they had to add in the convertibles sub-frame connections and may have included some inner structure.

To be completely honest Norm, the Camaro's Alpha is a mess. The ATS's platform is great, but the Camaro is essentially the CTS floor with an ATS front section, that's how they got 111 inches. The CTS's IRS links were extended as well, that is terrible.

The 1LE simply became what originally the SS was intended to be. It came down to weight (3780-3820lbs) and MSRP (38,995+) and, after putting proper tire/rotor on a Camaro, they discovered it needed ZL1/Vert type reinforcement.

Long story short, the 6th Gen is only about 70% of what the S550 is while the ATS is nearly 95% around 29,000. In fact, examine the improvements made to the ATS-V and ask yourself:

Are those NVH improvements or for rigidity? The large A-Pillar brace suggest that even the TTV6 was too heavy for the ATS cradle... so why didn't the Camaro get this?

We already know why... and as soon as we can pester GM into coughing up the report, we will plaster it all over the Internet. To be honest, the rear opening on the Camaro where the rear door should be, SHOULD have intrusion beams present.

Why do you continue to make statements as facts without one ounce of proof to back it up. You keep saying the same stuff over and over and over again when people have clearly shown the 1le did not get any extra bracing. The reviews of the Alpha have been nothing but excellent when it come to being rigid. In fact many say it's the best platform GM has. If that Chassie was as bad as you claim, they would not get these rave reviews and get these awesome lap times. In fact the EB racer in the FS class last year switched to the Camaro this year and said it's the best handling car he's been in. Even Probst said the lt4 is in a much better chassie then the Z06. So let's see some proof of these extra supports, bad design you keep repeating.

 

[ls6-m22]

There isn't any added bracing or support on the 1LE. The weight increase is do to the eLSD,extra cooling and larger brakes. I cant understand why pill keeps spreading false info? Whats his agenda?

 

[Childs Play]

There isn't any added bracing or support on the 1LE. The weight increase is do to the eLSD,extra cooling and larger brakes. I cant understand why pill keeps spreading false info? Whats his agenda?

He doesn't have one. He's a troll.

 

[Childs Play]

Proof? We've gone over this time and time again. Multiple people from multiple backgrounds and forums state the same thing. Shaved tires, non oem parts, you can't get a production zl1 to run that time. Then you have gm themselves running the 13 z28 and not bearing the 12 zl1 time of 7:42 only to comeback amo th later in bad weather to take 4 seconds off. Or that production ZR1 that was 12 secs slower than gm time. Proof is everywhere if you care to look.

Hearsay isn't proof. ThePill, four other Mustang owners, and your friend Phil claiming that someone told them that someone at GM shaved tires, threw on a CAI, re tuned the car and set the tire pressure at 27.8 psi instead of 28.5 psi isn't proof either.

Also, who cares if the tires were shaved anyway..? Seriously. What does that prove? An "older" tire performs better than a brand new one right off the rack? Stop the presses...

I know plenty of guys that heat up their tires right before running at the track. Are they cheaters?

And where's the info on the Z/28 running slower than the ZL1? Even so... Them coming back at a later date to re-run the car doesn't prove they changed a whole bunch on the car. It just shows they had a better run that day. You can have that happen you know? Now that doesn't mean that they couldn't have tinkered with something either... Just saying that it isn't universal proof that they DID do something.

I'm not saying that the first run didn't happen, I'm just saying that I didn't see footage or an article about it anywhere with a simple search. If it exists, please link it. I'm actually curious about this.

And, at the end of the day. Would you buy a Camaro even if it was 30 seconds faster than the Mustang on the ring? I highly doubt it. I owned a 2012 ZL1 and I can promise you I didn't buy it because it was the fastest car out there from the factory and I definitely didn't buy it because I felt safe when changing lanes because of it not having any blind spots...

I just happen to get a great deal on it whereas the GT500 didn't have people budging on prices as much. I'd have loved to have the GT500. That thing was a beast.

Edit: Just realizing this thread is about the GT vs 1LE. How do we get off topic so much..? :shrug:

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