Ford Racing

[Juben]

Every friend I've had with Subbie's has had issues. I like the cars, but have had first hand experience with the reliability issues that have given them a bad name. A lot of it is in the tuning, but still yet, they seem to be a ticking bomb with mods.

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[tittermary]

I don't think you're a fan boy and you haven't came across to me that way. I was talking directly to Anthony on that one. I get tired of his antics on here.

Livernois has a fantastic product that does get results. I just went with the AP because it does what I want in a tuning device and works with the tuners I wanted to use. That doesn't mean Livernois has a sub-par product though like Anthony would seem to think I would be implying.

Here's the thing for everyone, get what you want and what works for you. If you're happy, then that's all that matters. There's no need for all of this fighting and bickering on here all the time. You'd think the community would be excited and want to help push each other to bigger and better things, but it's more like a mad house most days. Let's all work together and try to help each other!

yep, everything is new and people are working stuff out it will settle down and the "proven" recipes will come to the top,

I can say this much already the autos are by far faster all else being = its amazing how well they work with this turbo engine.

 

[Roidrage]

Every friend I've had with Subbie's has had issues. I like the cars, but have had first hand experience with the reliability issues that have given them a bad name. A lot of it is in the tuning, but still yet, they seem to be a ticking bomb with mods.

Any friend of mine that has had Head Gasket/Ringland/ Piston etc issues have been because they were on the Cobb AP canned tune. Those well off enough to have protunes done by reputable tuners have had 0 issues. And this is relating to a group of 15+ subie owners.

Which leads me to believe there's something in those tunes that and blowing things up (not literally, but you know what I mean).

 

[Juben]

My friends, several of them, have all ran custom tunes, either Protunes or custom AEM, etc. They've all had issues with ringlands, rods, head gaskets, etc. None of them will touch the Cobb tunes, lol.

 

[Roidrage]

My friends, several of them, have all ran custom tunes, either Protunes or custom AEM, etc. They've all had issues with ringlands, rods, head gaskets, etc. None of them will touch the Cobb tunes, lol.

Where I'm from there are very few local Subie Protuners (realistically none). Many if not all Subie owners start with Cobb AP & eventually drive to buffalo to get a protune done, saved onto their Cobb AP.

Those who get the protune done at Buffalo have had no issues what so ever.

Sidenote: All have the Subies I'm referring to are 2010+ WRX/STI's.

 

[Juben]

Oh, by the way, the track temps this past Saturday was 32°-40° when I was making passes. I'm sure that didn't help my "summer only" tires.

 

[Juben]

Where I'm from there are very few local Subie Protuners (realistically none). Many if not all Subie owners start with Cobb AP & eventually drive to buffalo to get a protune done, saved onto their Cobb AP.

Those who get the protune done at Buffalo have had no issues what so ever.

Sidenote: All have the Subies I'm referring to are 2010+ WRX/STI's.

A lot of people around here had them at one point. A few went to Slowboy and I forget the others. Most of them were older WRXs/STIs, but there's two newer ones, a 2012 and 2013, that both blew up within the last few weeks. At least they were honking fast though. [emoji1]

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

So to attempt to answer all of the tuning questions in a short concise (As Possible) post.

As a preamble to what I am going to post, we do not defame nor call out any companies.


Speaking of the vendor that you guys referenced, they are the hardware provider. They do not provide the tuning. We have tested all of the software and hardware that is in the marketplace, and deemed creating our own software and hardware necessary in order to do the tuning that we wanted to do.

Like previously stated, all of the tuning providers in the industry are all for the most part using the same software companies to base their tuning off of. So they ALL share the same limitations. The information that is logged by the OBDii port is too inaccurate to be used for tuning. We do not require logging because we own the vehicles that we tune. We do not need a starting point to tune from, that is what datalogging is for. Obviously, we are not here to edify the other vendors in the marketplace, so please do not take the particulars that I leave out as avoidance. We just can't tell you the "secret sauce' kind of stuff.

There are over 18k tables in an EcoBoost ECU. The big 3rd party tuning companies have access to around 100 primary tuning tables. Our tuning software has access to around 4 times that. And like someone else stated, there are plenty of tables that are completely superfluous. We built software to take advantage of the most important tables that exist in the ECU.

We also tackle the stock logic. With the software that was available we felt that we had the ability to build something more efficient, so we did. Our software gives us unprecedented access to altering the stock logic. Again like someone cited, we do extensive R&D with the "big 3" being the 3 domestic manufacturers. So it would be hard for anyone else to have the same experience and familiarity with these ECU's like we do.

Lastly the hardware. We understand that a lot of you guys like the monitoring aspect of the afore mentioned vendor. But in reality is, the PIDS and sample rates of the EcoBoost ECU are HORRIBLE! This is why we do not provide an interface that monitors. Keep in mind, the EcoBoost platform is COMPLETELY different than the mechanical turbo systems found in the turbo cars that you guys have been talking about. Therefore, the comparison is kind of void (apples and oranges). The EcoBoost platform is a recirculating system, not a mechanical system, a completely different beast. We have already tried that, and it is not fruitful because with this platform in particular if you do not have live tuning suite software you are getting "dirty" information. This is why we have turned towards the K.I.S.S. system interface. Why muddy the waters when we can provide our clients with an interface with a small, easy to use and straightforward piece of hardware? All that is going to do is limit the market that we have access to. Many people that tune their vehicles now are not of the forum demographic. This is their first turbo vehicle, their first endeavor into modifying their vehicle or they are finally interested or fiscally able to do so. So why intimidate them even further with a device that might make them feel like basic tuning is far more difficult than it is? To us it does not make good business sense to exclude or intimidate the masses even further to cater to the few. And PLEASE do not take offense to that statement, but we are a multi-faceted business. We do not only hone in on the EcoBoost platform, of just Ford, GM, Mopar platforms etc...we deal with them ALL. And have world records with them ALL...using our proprietary tuning software and hardware combination.

Please do not take this as bragging, boasting or gloating but here is a fairly short list of just our EcoBoost achievements:

In 2009, before anyone had software, we were tuning the SHO and MKS.

In 2011, we were tuning the F-150 Eco before other companies could even flash it. We were the first again

In 2012, we were tuning the 2013 SHO while other software wasn't out for 6-8 months later

In 2012, we were tuning the Explorer Sport, almost a full year and a half before anyone else.

First to tune the 2.0 fusion

First to tune the 1.5 fusion

First to tune the 1.6 fusion

First to tune the 2.0 escape

First to tune the 1.6 escape

First tune only 12 second SHO

First 11 second SHO

First 12 second F150

First 12 second Explorer Sport

First 11 second EcoBoost Mustang

First with upgraded turbo's

First with Downpipes

First with Methanol kits

First to offer 3-bar tuning

First 600whp EcoBoost Dyno captured on video

Highest HP EcoBoost Engine on the planet

First and only so far to tune 2015 Explorer Sport, SHO, Fusion, Expedition, F-150 3.5L EcoBoost etc....

 

[Juben]

Can you elaborate more on the recirculating system vs. the mechanical system? This is the first time I've seen anyone mention anything of the nature and now you have me curious.

 

[Roidrage]

Sweet baby Jesus, we struck gold!!

Outside of the performance aspect, could you please touch upon the reliability aspect to your tuning suit? This is my primary concern when tuning. I could careless about 5-10 WHP when reliability is a potential concern (bumping boost from 20 to 23/25).

Thanks for all the info! Much appreciated.

 

[dvn]

Sweet baby Jesus, we struck gold!!

Outside of the performance aspect, could you please touch upon the reliability aspect to your tuning suit? This is my primary concern when tuning. I could careless about 5-10 WHP when reliability is a potential concern (bumping boost from 20 to 23/25).

Thanks for all the info! Much appreciated.

This! I don't race and I'm not concerned with getting THE most power from a tune. I'd be looking for a safe, reliable bump in performance. I will likely keep this car for 10+ years.

 

[Juben]

Sweet baby Jesus, we struck gold!!

Outside of the performance aspect, could you please touch upon the reliability aspect to your tuning suit? This is my primary concern when tuning. I could careless about 5-10 WHP when reliability is a potential concern (bumping boost from 20 to 23/25).

Thanks for all the info! Much appreciated.

I'm pretty sure that they said in another post that they keep boost levels at stock or within 2 psi above. In the post, they actually said >2 psi of stock boost levels, but I'm pretty sure they meant within 2 psi of stock levels.

 

[dragonacc]

I appreciate the answer LMS.

 

[neodark]

Thanks for the detailed explanation LMS. One specific remark I want to make is related to the tuner hardware.

While I understand your stance, I would like to have access to some of the additional gauges provided with the other vendors. The idea that I can't "see" what my bolt-ons or tune are doing is disappointing. I'm by no means an advanced user. Yes, this is my first turbo car, the first time I do bolt-ons, the first time I actually install said bold-ons. And, I'm having a blast. I also bake my custom android roms, and flash the hell outta my phone, so I have some idea of what a tune entails.

I am an analytical guy (Work in the IT field) and like to see metrics to define performance. How do I know what my upgrades are doing anything besides SOTP feel? I would like to know what my IAT2 is (Charge temp or CATs) as this seems to be one of the biggest issues with the platform. Unfortunately, this is not provided by Ford... So, I have no idea how my after market IC is performing for example.

While I agree that bad information is not the best (PIDS and sample rates you mentioned) I would at least like to have a metric to go on for comparison purposes.

I give you props for being so forthcoming on the advantages of your tune. I really just want to have a cake, and eat it. Otherwise, I'm left with choosing better ECU access (secret sauce) or gauges to help me understand my vehicle, as I can't have both.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Can you elaborate more on the recirculating system vs. the mechanical system? This is the first time I've seen anyone mention anything of the nature and now you have me curious.

The EcoBoost turbo system is a recirculating torque management system. Meaning, that the ECU runs the show. If the ECU calculates that you can have 100% throttle and full boost the ECU allows you. If the calculations say that you get 25% throttle and 2# of boost that's all that you get. Another huge difference is that you cannot dictate when and at what rate boost is created.

Your mechanical turbo you spool up, and it has an external controller that the operator has access to. The impeller spools, as long as you keep the intake flap open. You command 100% throttle, you get it and boost is being created by air flow.

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