Dyno tuning in Europe

[Push13]

I sold my 15 GT PP and the new owner took it in and had it put on the dyno. The results were not at all what I was expecting and I suspect the tuner was trying to get him to buy something he didn't need or the tuning procedures here are considerably different than in the states.
Base on a few conversations I've had, I'm suspecting that the cars are run on the dyno and are then adjusted to reflect the stock crank numbers advertised by the manufacturer. This would work fine as specific dyno numbers are not really important to tuning, only a reference for gains. I think they use the advertised numbers to give the customer a reference to what they bought.

The car is a US spec GT with the PP. It has a 3” cat back, JLT CAI and a tune from Lund racing. This is a common setup and yields about a 30hp gain in all of the graphs I've seen. The dyno results on this car were DIN PS 426 and a peak torque of 500nM @4500.

Odd conversation that came up after the session was since the owner was given a result in PS, he asked what that would be in 'american'. The Dyno tech said he would add 5 hp.. The original number was 421. He made it 426 on the sheet. None of that makes sense for a lot of reasons and it leads me to think that the fellow was at best calibrating his dyno using the car and manufacturer numbers, though he was told it was tuned. At worst, he was fudging the numbers so he could sell a dyno tune.

I told him to find a stock GT and run him through 3rd or 4th gear or something to see the difference.

My experience with the car was that the tune added substantial power especially in the midrange but also at the top.

Any thoughts and input are appreciated.

Shane

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[Push13]

In thinking about this more, setting a value to start tuning from makes sense to get rid of the discrepancies between dynos, but the real question here is:

Without uncorrected numbers, and a way to compare these uncorrected numbers to other cars with similar mods, how can you know if your mods have produced results using this correction/ adjustment method?

Shane

 

[Lsstefan]

Are you asking if you do dyno differently in Europe?
If that's the question, then the answer is no.

From my experience there are 2 types of dynos. One is measuring power at the wheels and the other is aproximating crank power. So if you don't know how much power is lost from the engine to the wheels, you can get 420 hp on one and 460 on another. The wheel one is the most accurate of the two.

I did a few runs before the tune using a dyna pack and I got 278 whp and 405 Nm @ 2100 RPM. Wiki says I should have 434 Nm @ 3200 RPM.

In my opinion, whp is better. And regardless of the method and correction, if you do before and after pulls using the SAME values, you should see a difference.

 

[Push13]

I understand the process, however I do think it is done a bit differently here. In the states we don't get estimated crank numbers, only whp. Here, everyone I've spoken to gets estimated bhp numbers. (most think they are whp numbers)

The part that threw me in this case was that the dyno tech changed the results to match a US spec car as opposed to a Euro spec car after the dyno run was completed and then stated that those were stock numbers, which based on cars I've beaten, can't be the case.

Another conversation I had with another member left me with the impression that people expect to get the stock numbers when their car is stock.

THis method actually makes a lot of sense if you really want to compare a baseline to mods as it should be consistent across different garages. You can compare apples to apples as it takes the dyno discrepancies out of the equation. One person with a 421hp stock pull and a 450hp tuned number can compare final numbers with another person without adjusting numbers. This doesn't give a way to get a value for current mods without a base run unless the tuner uses the base run adjustment values from another vehicle.

 

[Lsstefan]

We too can get whp. I got it measured for whp because that's what matters. Tbh, the reason a lot of people prefer crank hp is because it's bigger. Just like manufacturers don't advertise kW due to the value being smaller.
When you say he changed the values to US and considering you guy get whp, should mean he showed you the whp, not bhp. I lost like 35 hp from crank to wheel(if we take Ford's bhp claim) so 421 whp for a tuned GT should be ok.
I think the dyno guy didn't pay attention to the fact the GT was tuned.
Regarding the discrepancies, if you measure stock whp on different dynos, you should get same values. But if you use the approximation method, then there will be a difference (happened to a friend of mine).

I'm sorry, but I still don't understand your issue
You're "upset" because the dyno guy kinda claims that your mods to the car are near the same values as stock?

Without uncorrected numbers, and a way to compare these uncorrected numbers to other cars with similar mods, how can you know if your mods have produced results using this correction/ adjustment method?

If you do a stock pull and then add the mods, regardless of way the result is shown, you can see improvements. If you get a tuned result and use the values from a different car, then the difference might be substantial or none at all, eg you get tuned whp and the other car has stock bhp. The values might be the same. Compare to yourself, not others. Dyno guys have a way of inflating values for the pleasure of the customer.

 

[Push13]

I'm not upset addle: :lol: Only trying to understand how things are done and whether the tech made an honest mistake or if he deliberately fudged the numbers in order to sell a dyno tune. Regardless of whether it was whp or bhp, he claimed these numbers were stock.

We'll see how it goes on the street if he gets a chance to run someone.

Thanks for the replies,
Shane

 

[Lsstefan]

If the car is tuned with the mods you stated, it's impossible to get stock values. Unless the tune is very very very bad, but I doubt that.

 

[UNtamed67]

Just as example an EU (BE) Dyno...It's an ecoboost...but it got a good improvement...

 

[Lsstefan]

Just as example an EU (BE) Dyno...It's an ecoboost...but it got a good improvement...

How do you rate BR? I have a friend with an X6M, he had tune from BR and the car was a mess...

 

[UNtamed67]

Overall very happy.
However, sometimes when kicking down in 3th or 4th it seems not to release all power at once...
Gonna reswap my K&N filter to the std one as appearently this kind of filter might have a negative impact...????

 

[Ericc B]

I have a similar feeling about my JTL CAI. It hauls ass at 5000+ RPM but in the lower RPM regions it feels a bit restricted. Like a giant turbo lag.

 

[UNtamed67]

Believe it or not, I still don't, but it seems the standard Ford 'paper' filter doesn't have the lag I have with K&N....Have to do more tests as this would be ridiculous...

 

[Push13]

Just as example an EU (BE) Dyno...It's an ecoboost...but it got a good improvement...

So this is a good example. This is estimated crank hp. What method did they use to estimate this?

Thanks, Shane

Lsstefan, I'm right there with you. Everything you've said makes sense and I agree. I can't see how the tech could be confused about his own numbers. How do they get the flywheel estimate is my current question?

shane

 

[Lsstefan]

So this is a good example. This is estimated crank hp. What method did they use to estimate this?

Thanks, Shane

Lsstefan, I'm right there with you. Everything you've said makes sense and I agree. I can't see how the tech could be confused about his own numbers. How do they get the flywheel estimate is my current question?

shane

I don't know that either. I heard that you lose [MENTION=17112]10[/MENTION]%(for a 2wd, more for 4wd) power from the crank to the wheels.
I got 278.5 whp. So 310*0.9(10% loss)=279. So yeah, around 10%.
I guess the dyno guys will estimate this loss and put it in the computer. So when the computer gets 279 whp, it will add that 10% and give you estimated crank hp.

My dyno guy asked for final ratio and 4th gear ratio, nothing more.

 

[UNtamed67]

No idea on the method used....
We started at 314HP in EU, right?, so I should have 282 but am at 304HP according to my Dyno ...that's about 3% loss..
Deducting 10% after the tune should result in 318HP vs 354HP on the Dyno....who will tell...

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