BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[GT Pony]

It's definitely good to get that data. However, they don't necessarily measure that in the shop, and if they do an engine swap, it gets sent off to Ford where we never hear of it again. Now that it's considered "normal", we may never know. At least not until several people who have a bad tick pulls the oil pan and tinkers around in there to create a baseline of data.

Yep, I agree ... it's hard to get rod side clearance measurements out of the shops, and pretty much impossible to get it done on a new short block for the reasons mentioned above. But there are some measurements reported here, and the clearance was way out of factory service manual specs. And those engines were tore down because they had the typewriter tick (BBQ tick).

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[Jetnoise]

Guys who got a short block under warranty had the ticking cured, and then running the same oil as before (typically Motorcraft 5W-20 synthetic blend). Some guys got multiple short block replacements because the previous short blocks didn't fix the ticking ... but we really don't know if the rod side clearances were within spec or not on the replacement short blocks because they come with an oil pan and shops aren't going to remove the oil pan on a brand new short block unless the customer said "do so, and I'll pay for the extra labor". So the collection of rod side clearances is magically hard to get it seems.

Info says that excessive rod side clearance can indeed cause abnormal engine noises. Example: https://turbobuick.com/threads/rod-side-clearances.150914/

Everything I've researched and read about "oil cavitation" as being the cause says the typewriter tick acts opposite of what oil cavitation would cause. Read the Section "5. Conclusions" on the last page: http://or.nsfc.gov.cn/bitstream/00001903-5/477106/1/1000013598568.pdf

I hear what you are saying & you have been a supporter of the tick is a rod clearance Issue.
I don’t have the bbq yet but it is very easily audibly id’d to me. Some here...not all ...not so much. What I am saying is that don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. I’m not sold on tic = rod issues.
It’s pure theory at this point in time. Ford has recalled lesser sins on less numbers built than this.

 

[GT Pony]

I hear what you are saying & you have been a supporter of the tick is a rod clearance Issue.
I don’t have the bbq yet but it is very easily audibly id’d to me. Some here...not all ...not so much. What I am saying is that don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. I’m not sold on tic = rod issues.
It’s pure theory at this point in time. Ford has recalled lesser sins on less numbers built than this.

Everything I've seen points that direction as the cause, until further data/info shows differently. Ford isn't going to do a recall - it's not a safety issue. They handled it by a case-by-case basis and replaced plenty of short blocks under warranty since 2011 because of the typewriter tick. Ford would approve a short block with just a tick listen from a dealer service department. Why would Ford do that if they didn't know the real cause without having the dealer do a teardown and diagnosis?

If it was really caused by something non-mechanical like oil cavitation, they would have came out with their SSM explaining the actual cause and saying it's "normal" years ago.

 

[TricarboNate]

Yep, I also had no BBQ tick. Did my first oil change at 1,500 miles and IMMEDIATELY it started ticking after the oil change.

Couldn't care less at this point as it doesn't seem detrimental. At least it isn't a knock like the 2018+ Gen 3 engines have!

 

[Condor1970]

Everything I've seen points that direction as the cause, until further data/info shows differently. Ford isn't going to do a recall - it's not a safety issue. They handled it by a case-by-case basis and replaced plenty of short blocks under warranty since 2011 because of the typewriter tick. Ford would approve a short block with just a tick listen from a dealer service department. Why would Ford do that if they didn't know the real cause without having the dealer do a teardown and diagnosis?

If it was really caused by something non-mechanical like oil cavitation, they would have came out with their SSM explaining the actual cause and saying it's "normal" years ago.

The problem is that the noise is identical to the noises in the diesels that Ford and Chevy both explain as an oil issue. With the lack of oil flashing as an explanation, the SSM is basically the same message as the others. The noise is normal, and don't try to fix it, etc.
Also, there is a British guy who has the tick, and Ford wouldn't replace the engine because he got an nGauge and Lund tune.
So, he spent gobs of money to have a really high end master mechanic pull the bottom end apart. He measured all rod end clearances specifically, and all were well within tolerance. They found nothing wrong, anywhere in the engine. He finally gave up, and just added a bottle of Ceratec, and the noise has been gone since.

 

[GT Pony]

The problem is that the noise is identical to the noises in the diesels that Ford and Chevy both explain as an oil issue. With the lack of oil flashing as an explanation, the SSM is basically the same message as the others. The noise is normal, and don't try to fix it, etc.
Also, there is a British guy who has the tick, and Ford wouldn't replace the engine because he got an nGauge and Lund tune.
So, he spent gobs of money to have a really high end master mechanic pull the bottom end apart. He measured all rod end clearances specifically, and all were well within tolerance. They found nothing wrong, anywhere in the engine. He finally gave up, and just added a bottle of Ceratec, and the noise has been gone since.

Got a link to the British guy case? If it's the one I'm thinking about, the original shop found rod side clearances out of spec. Measuring rod side clearance isn't hard to do accurately, so I'm kind of skeptical that someone else found them "well within" spec. Seems kind of like a fishy situation. I don't recall hearing back from his friend with all the exact measurements the engine pro guy was to take like he said he would teport.

If Ford knows it's oil cavitation then why didn't they put it in the SSM language like in the Powerstroke SSM? And why did Ford take so long to say "it's normal" if they already knew years ago that Powerstrokes supposedly tick from oil cavitation? Have guys used Ceratec in ticking Powerstrokes, and if so what's the result?

And if it's oil cavitation, why does running Ceratec for 5000K miles, but not again after an oil change still keeps the tick from occurring? If Ceratec caused oil to not cavitate, then the cavitation should have occured again with an oil change and no Ceratec.

 

[Grom13]

Hi lads , I have a 2018 GT it had the tick slightly when I bought it 3000km but only when cold , and I hated it ,took away a lot of the joy of getting a near new car that I never thought I would own . 3500km changed the oil for Penrite 5w-30 full syn racing , tick changed with new oil became louder and could also hear when engine was warm , I’m OCD so was not happy and disappointed that my newish mustang sounded like this. Went to local auto store to see if they had Ceratek , they had a great selection of liquid molly products including 1 bottle of Ceretek , bought bottle went out to car park and put in the mustang started car waited 1 minute , listened under engine tick gone and hasn’t returned in over 3 months and 2000km , engine is smoother hot or cold . I love the car again and don’t even think or listen for the tick anymore, I just enjoy the car . I really didn’t want to deal with dealers over the tick and now that ford have said it’s a normal characteristic of the Gen3 coyote dealers are not going to be very helpful . I guess what I’m getting at is there is a fix for the bbq tick it’s called Ceretek use it and forget about your tick it will be gone instantly ,simple and easy fix . If ford rebranded Ceretek and sold it at the service counter and added it to your oil during a regular service if you complained about your coyote engine tick and charged you an extra $40 on the service , but when you picked up your car and listened for the tick it was gone, fixed, you would happily pay the $40 and say what a great job ford did fixing your tick , and not think about it again and enjoy your car . Ceretek will fix your bbq tick , if it dosnt you don’t have the bbq tick , so my advice is use it and start loving your car again . Cheers

 

[Condor1970]

Got a link to the British guy case? If it's the one I'm thinking about, the original shop found rod side clearances out of spec. Measuring rod side clearance isn't hard to do accurately, so I'm kind of skeptical that someone else found them "well within" spec. Seems kind of like a fishy situation. I don't recall hearing back from his friend with all the exact measurements the engine pro guy was to take like he said he would teport.

If Ford knows it's oil cavitation then why didn't they put it in the SSM language like in the Powerstroke SSM? And why did Ford take so long to say "it's normal" if they already knew years ago that Powerstrokes supposedly tick from oil cavitation? Have guys used Ceratec in ticking Powerstrokes, and if so what's the result?

And if it's oil cavitation, why does running Ceratec for 5000K miles, but not again after an oil change still keeps the tick from occurring? If Ceratec caused oil to not cavitate, then the cavitation should have occured again with an oil change and no Ceratec.

I have no idea. The tick was much less of a PR issue until the 2018's came out with higher compression and the new DI system that I know is just downright noisy as heck.. All I know, is that a mechanical problem is something I think is not the case, since it happens in so many engines, in the exact same way. If it was a serious mechanical problem out of spec, they would have had it fixed by the end of 2018 MY production from all the complaints. Yet, boat loads of 2019's tick as well.

This is the link. The guy paid an advanced mechanic a ton of money to tear the engine apart. He measured everything and makes note of the end bearings being just fine around the 2:00 mark in the video. He found everything in spec with no damage to anything, even after the Ford dealer said they thought it was excessive end bearing clearances. Well, it wasn't . Yet, his engine ticks like crazy. One bottle of German Goo, and it immediately went away, and has not returned.

 

[Jetnoise]

I have no idea. The tick was much less of a PR issue until the 2018's came out with higher compression and the new DI system that I know is juts downright noisy as heck.. All I know, is that a mechanical problem is something I think is not the case, since it happens in so many engines, in the exact same way. If it was a serious mehcanical problem out of spec, they would have had it fixed by the end of 2018 MY production from all the complaints. Yet, boat loads of 2019's tick as well.

This is the link. The guy paid an advanced mechanic a ton of money to tear the engine apart. He measured everything and and makes note of the end bearings being just fine around the 2:00 mark in the video. He found everything in spec with no damage to anything, even after the Ford dealer said they thought it was excessive end bearing clearances. Well, it wasn't . Yet, his engine ticks like crazy. One bottle of German Goo, and it immediately went away, and has not returned.

This & this
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/gen-3-coyote-measurements.122096/

Doesn't support gt pony's theory at all.

 

[GT Pony]

This & this
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/gen-3-coyote-measurements.122096/

Doesn't support gt pony's theory at all.

Just read that new thread and yes it muddies the waters. Like I said in that thread, why would some engines exhibit "oil cavitation" and others wouldn't when they are all supposedly "built within specs" and all run the same exact motor oil? There has to be some kind of physical differences between a typewriter ticker and a non-ticker.

 

[GT Pony]

I have no idea. The tick was much less of a PR issue until the 2018's came out with higher compression and the new DI system that I know is just downright noisy as heck.. All I know, is that a mechanical problem is something I think is not the case, since it happens in so many engines, in the exact same way. If it was a serious mechanical problem out of spec, they would have had it fixed by the end of 2018 MY production from all the complaints. Yet, boat loads of 2019's tick as well.

This is the link. The guy paid an advanced mechanic a ton of money to tear the engine apart. He measured everything and makes note of the end bearings being just fine around the 2:00 mark in the video. He found everything in spec with no damage to anything, even after the Ford dealer said they thought it was excessive end bearing clearances. Well, it wasn't . Yet, his engine ticks like crazy. One bottle of German Goo, and it immediately went away, and has not returned.

He said it doesn't tick at all at idle, only around 1500 to 1800 RPM so doubt this is actually the 'typewriter tick' which can be heard quite well at idle, but could be some other engine problem. Or it's some strange variant of the typewriter tick. He also said if the cylinder #3 is disabled the noise goes away ... that's an indication that it's not oil cavitation but instead something mechanical.

 

[khsonic03]

I wanted to follow up on my post above. About 150 miles after adding the ceratec, my tick returned. It's not as loud and not as often, but once the engine is up to temp (185ish) , I hear it occasionally around 1250 rpm with light revving.

It's not every time, so I have no idea. I have about 200 miles on the new oil and ceratec (1500 miles total on the car). I even added another half bottle to ensure the recommended dosage.

It's not nearly as bad as immediately after the oil change, so I am probably just going to live with it. I will probably bring it to the dealer to have it documented though, just in case.

 

[Condor1970]

I wanted to follow up on my post above. About 150 miles after adding the ceratec, my tick returned. It's not as loud and not as often, but once the engine is up to temp (185ish) , I hear it occasionally around 1250 rpm with light revving.

It's not every time, so I have no idea. I have about 200 miles on the new oil and ceratec (1500 miles total on the car). I even added another half bottle to ensure the recommended dosage.

It's not nearly as bad as immediately after the oil change, so I am probably just going to live with it. I will probably bring it to the dealer to have it documented though, just in case.

I added half a bottle of Ceratec, and the tick went completely away. Then came back within a few weeks. I added the other half bottle, and it went away and hasn't come back. Made me wonder why.

Well, I think since Ceratec adheres to the wear surfaces, it plates the metal, then the concentration in the oil goes down. As it goes down, it starts ticking again over time. You add more, and eventually when all wear surfaces get plated, the rest of the hBn stays in the oil, which affects its ability to cavitate. I think when people do oil changes, and it doesn't tick initially, means there is enough residual somewhere that prevents cavitation. But then it eventually comes back for some reason. With the Ceratec fully plating the affected areas, it makes no sense when they are silent, then start ticking the moment the oil is changed. It doesn't come off that quick. The only thing that changed was the oil, not the plated surfaces. This tells me it must be the oil itself, and not something mechanical.

 

[GT Pony]

With the Ceratec fully plating the affected areas, it makes no sense when they are silent, then start ticking the moment the oil is changed.

Condor1970 ... you should have been running two bottles of Ceratec for your 10 qt sump capacity. You were only running 1/4 and then 1/2 the suggested concentration per LiquiMoly.

But there are cases (probably more than not) where the tick didn't return with an oil change when Ceratec was ran for a prolong period at or near the called for concentration, and there was no Ceratec added to that fresh oil change. How does that explain oil cavitation as the cause? If there is still a good layer of anti-friction layer on parts from the Ceratic, and then new oil with no Ceratec is put in the engine, wouldn't you think it would tick again if it was really caused by oil cavitation?

That's the problem with trying to figure out the root cause of the typewriter tick, there is always some info or observations that debunk some of the theories.

 

[TomW801]

That's the problem with trying to figure out the root cause of the typewriter tick, there is always some info or observations that debunk some of the theories.

True. I brought my ticking 17 GT to the dealer and they think it has to do something with the valve train or timing chain. They already changed the timing chains and tensioners which did not change anything.

Based on my observations I cannot believe it has got anything to do with the valve train. It has to be on the bottom end, maybe excessive rod or crankshaft clearance, as some suggest. It certainly sounds as coming from the bottom of the engine.

My engine does not tick at idle. It does it when cruising with constant speed at 1400-2000 rpm. What makes me think it’s rod/crankshaft related is this:
If you give it just a little bit more throttle (accelerating very slowly), the ticking disappears instantly. Same if you let off the throttle a bit. It’s perfectly reproducible on my daily trip to work. I’m driving with cruise control at 35mph in 4th (MT) and it ticks. Now I approach a small incline and cruise control has to apply some more throttle to hold speed and the ticking is completely gone immediately. After the incline the tick returns.

My theory is that due to excessive clearance the rods clatter in lateral direction. When some lateral force is applied to the crankshaft via the clutch/flywheel, it is pushed every so little in lateral direction so the rods cannot clatter, because they cannot move freely anymore.

I cannot imagine how the instantly disappearing of the tick could be explained if it was valve train related.

Also, an analysis of the oil that was 5000 mls in the engine showed 4mg/kg of lead. This is not very much I’m being told, but I believe lead is in the rod and crankshaft bearings, so another hint here?

Now I’m trying to convince my dealer that he does some investigation in that direction but he insists on concentrating on the valves further.

Tom

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