Applying Torque vs Horsepower

[Dominant1]

The statement, as I've heard it, is "horsepower sells cars but torque wins races."

Coyotes almost always beat ls motors and they have less torque...because in a race hp wins, 0-60mph torque wins...coyotes make more hp in the higher rpms then ls motors...

Sponsored

 

[cjj237]

Power to weight wins races, but whatever.

 

[Dominant1]

A good example of hp winning is the gt-350 rated at 526hp and 429 fl lbs of torque and the 2016 camaro rated at 455 hp 455 torque, and the camaro is lighter in overall weight. But the gt-350 out runs it because of one reason more hp!

 

[PJR202]

Coyotes almost always beat ls motors and they have less torque...because in a race hp wins, 0-60mph torque wins...coyotes make more hp in the higher rpms then ls motors...

They do??


And as the next guy said, it's power to weight in the end. But a low torque motor isn't gonna win the 1/4 mile. You need torque to get off the line. And horsepower as a number doesn't even exist without torque in the equation.

 

[PJR202]

the gearing is also a major factor, but someone else can explain all of this better than me. I'm no expert by any means.

 

[Coolmanfoo]

Power to weight wins races, but whatever.

True as that is I'd say it's a lot easier to gain hp than she'd weight. A miata which has a pretty good power to weight ratio, won't be winning a drag race anytime soon

 

[Coolmanfoo]

A good example of hp winning is the gt-350 rated at 526hp and 429 fl lbs of torque and the 2016 camaro rated at 455 hp 455 torque, and the camaro is lighter in overall weight. But the gt-350 out runs it because of one reason more hp!

That's an interesting note. I drag raced an ls swapped blazer or some small suv that was apparently packing a lot of power. He got off the line way faster than my gt did but once I hit 4k rpms I blew right past him.

After the race I heard him talking to his buddies. They accused me of being boosted and probably running a fat supercharger. But that's just how the Coyote motor reacts, a little slow and then a huge surge of power above 4k

 

[Dominant1]

That's an interesting note. I drag raced an ls swapped blazer or some small suv that was apparently packing a lot of power. He got off the line way faster than my gt did but once I hit 4k rpms I blew right past him.

After the race I heard him talking to his buddies. They accused me of being boosted and probably running a fat supercharger. But that's just how the Coyote motor reacts, a little slow and then a huge surge of power above 4k

Lol heard that story many times.. blowing by somone who thought they had a win is a bigger statement !!!!!

 

[EricSMG]

think of it this way...

RPM and torque are the independent variables.
RPM is obviously independent, but the torque curve is designed (stroke length, rod:stroke ratio, bore, compression ratio, &c.) into the engine, thus independent.

HP is the dependent variable. Higher torque down in the lower RPM range = more low end horsepower.

you can have an engine that will produce 10,000 HP at 8,000 RPM, but if you don't have the #-ft. down low to get inertia on your side... you stall.

That's why a John Deere 9560R will get off of a line a hell of a lot faster than a Ford GT (low end torque). But the Ford GT will quickly jump ahead (high end HP).

If you take two engines that have equal rated HP numbers, lets say 500 @ 6,500 RPM, in two cars that are identical weight and aerodynamically, but "Car A" puts out 40 #-ft. more torque in the 2,000 RPM range. Car A will beat Car B.

Only during that short period of time where Car A has more torque - which, in any sort of high performance driving, is never. The only time low end torque is useful is lugging the motor in a higher gear. That's it. Never in racing or spirited driving because you're never at low rpms.

The fastest car is the car that makes horsepower at the highest rpm. The absolute value of engine torque is secondary. Think about F1 cars - 200lbft and 800hp. They're EXTREMELY fast because they make that 800hp at 15000 rpm. This means they can gear the car very low (which multiples the torque immensely) whilst still maintaining very high rates of speed.

Low rpm torque is not fast. Torque to the ground and very high engine rpms if fast. It's horsepower to weight, not torque to weight.

A good example of hp winning is the gt-350 rated at 526hp and 429 fl lbs of torque and the 2016 camaro rated at 455 hp 455 torque, and the camaro is lighter in overall weight. But the gt-350 out runs it because of one reason more hp!

Excellent example. Less torque more weight but yet faster. How can this be, especially if you were to compare the dynos below 4k rpm - Camaro destroys the 350 in this range...... WAY more torque.

It's faster because it makes high rpm horsepower which means better gearing and more road speed. Low end torque is for the most part moot in this example.

Another example is the E92 M3. These cars run mid/high 12s with only 295lbft of peak engine torque, 414 peak hp and 3700lb car. How can this possibly be?????? Because they make peak horsepower at 8,300rpm.

High. Rpm. Horsepower.

 

[crs2879]

Torque is generally a function of displacement and compression, excluding forced induction. HP is more a factor of RPM and air flow. 5.0 Coyote makes 435/400 whereas the 6.2 LS makes 455/455...the Coyote has 4V heads that can flow more air for a better HP/CI ratio but the lower displacement limits torque.

 

[Seceda91]

Only during that short period of time where Car A has more torque - which, in any sort of high performance driving, is never. The only time low end torque is useful is lugging the motor in a higher gear. That's it. Never in racing or spirited driving because you're never at low rpms.

The fastest car is the car that makes horsepower at the highest rpm. The absolute value of engine torque is secondary. Think about F1 cars - 200lbft and 800hp. They're EXTREMELY fast because they make that 800hp at 15000 rpm. This means they can gear the car very low (which multiples the torque immensely) whilst still maintaining very high rates of speed.

Low rpm torque is not fast. Torque to the ground and very high engine rpms if fast. It's horsepower to weight, not torque to weight.



Excellent example. Less torque more weight but yet faster. How can this be, especially if you were to compare the dynos below 4k rpm - Camaro destroys the 350 in this range...... WAY more torque.

It's faster because it makes high rpm horsepower which means better gearing and more road speed. Low end torque is for the most part moot in this example.

Another example is the E92 M3. These cars run mid/high 12s with only 295lbft of peak engine torque, 414 peak hp and 3700lb car. How can this possibly be?????? Because they make peak horsepower at 8,300rpm.

High. Rpm. Horsepower.

I had a good amount of seat time in the E92 M3.. I feels quick and the V8 sounds good but it's not quicker than the coyote. It's a high 12 sec car but then again, I heard that BMW underrates their cars.

The Camaro vs GT350 manual per manual is a really good example.. Although the Camaro weighs less, has 20 more lbs of torque, the GT350 has over 70 more HP. The GT350 runs around 12.2 the SS will run around 12.3-12.5, both manuals.

However, the 350 traps around 118mph vs 114 for the Camaro. So in this case more HP is an advantage

Torque - get's you going faster from the light
HP - faster speed/acceleration to the finish line.

There's an old saying, Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you take the wall with you.

 

[EricSMG]

I had a good amount of seat time in the E92 M3.. I feels quick and the V8 sounds good but it's not quicker than the coyote. It's a high 12 sec car but then again, I heard that BMW underrates their cars.

The Camaro vs GT350 manual per manual is a really good example.. Although the Camaro weighs less, has 20 more lbs of torque, the GT350 has over 70 more HP. The GT350 runs around 12.2 the SS will run around 12.3-12.5, both manuals.

However, the 350 traps around 118mph vs 114 for the Camaro. So in this case more HP is an advantage

Torque - get's you going faster from the light
HP - faster speed/acceleration to the finish line.

There's an old saying, Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you take the wall with you.

Yep, good post. I'm not saying the E92 M3 is as fast as this car. Rather, just using it as an extreme low torque/high weight example of a car that's very, very fast. They make around 350-360rwhp and 250rwtq. Very "meh" dyno numbers but yet fast cars.

The Camaro SS is the other extreme where high amounts of low torque is still, yet again, slower than the car with MUCH less low and mid rpm torque but more high rpm torque.

Point is - if you want to go fast, low rpm torque will be of little help. If you want to grunt around town at low rpms in higher gears, yes, big torque is by far better.

 

[Seceda91]

Yep, good post. I'm not saying the E92 M3 is as fast as this car. Rather, just using it as an extreme low torque/high weight example of a car that's very, very fast. They make around 350-360rwhp and 250rwtq. Very "meh" dyno numbers but yet fast cars.

The Camaro SS is the other extreme where high amounts of low torque is still, yet again, slower than the car with MUCH less low and mid rpm torque but more high rpm torque.

Point is - if you want to go fast, low rpm torque will be of little help. If you want to grunt around town at low rpms in higher gears, yes, big torque is by far better.

Nah I got ya.. the E92 M3 was one of my favorite cars.. Love that car but could never afford it.

But yeah, torque is def. low - mid end power. I love engines with both high HP and torque. Supercars for example usually have high amounts of HP for their acceleration and high top speeds.

 

[Coolmanfoo]

Yep, good post. I'm not saying the E92 M3 is as fast as this car. Rather, just using it as an extreme low torque/high weight example of a car that's very, very fast. They make around 350-360rwhp and 250rwtq. Very "meh" dyno numbers but yet fast cars.

The Camaro SS is the other extreme where high amounts of low torque is still, yet again, slower than the car with MUCH less low and mid rpm torque but more high rpm torque.

Point is - if you want to go fast, low rpm torque will be of little help. If you want to grunt around town at low rpms in higher gears, yes, big torque is by far better.

So how does this compare to the viper acr which has more torque than hp? I think it has like 600ftlbs. And it's winning every race on every track just about.

 

[Petroleum Jesus]

So how does this compare to the viper acr which has more torque than hp? I think it has like 600ftlbs. And it's winning every race on every track just about.

It doesn't have more torque than horsepower. The track cars are pushing something in the range of 750-800 horsepower.

Sponsored