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Chad11491

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i think you'll pick the mustang after driving both honestly. I really liked the M2's and 240i's. I had a 2015 mustang gt pp with steeda dampers and springs and a tune. Someone was texting and driving and hit me while sitting at a redlight and totaled the car out. I was bummed, but went and drove a m240i with the auto (couldn't find a manual) and was extremely disappointed. It was a fully m-optioned car and the suspension and brakes were severely underwhelming. It felt like a boat compared to my mustang. The leather was obviously nicer, but that was it on the interior. It was MUCH slower feeling than my gt was. I mean, very, very noticeably slower. I honestly was really disappointed. Everyone talks about how awesome BMW's are and it just really felt....blah... Just drive both like everyone else in here has said and make your mind up. I went with another GT and am really happy I did.
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BoostedCanadianPoney

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Sorry, but you are still wearing BMW marketing glasses.

Some simple truths. The Ford Mustang is offered with MagneRide, which is far superior to BMW's M suspension. BMW's dynamics are gone, they use electronic steering, and e-nannies on everything. The M240 doesn't even have a real differential, or A10/6-manual like the Mustang.

The Ecoboost 2.3 Mustang is also underrated, & has better efficiencies than BMW's twinscroll inline-6. Engine of the year bro.. and it's soon to get dual-injection like the V8.

Interiors are a wash, BMW is upscale and the Mustang's is simple and clean.


The 2018 Mustang is a better car, than anything 2-series.
I don't think the ecoboost 2.3 is underrated from the factory (just by watching stock dyno pulls on youtube) but the bmw's surely is. Really no competition here bmw engines are no joke! n54 n55 b58 are all stout engines... An FBO EB can take on a stock 335, sure but all else equal no cmopetition. My friend has a 335 with the n54 engine and upgraded turbos, the thing makes 600 wheel HP stock engine and intercooler.
 

Jdenkevitz

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I'm going to second this. I have a couple co-workers with BMWs that have passed warranty and it has not been kind to their pocketbooks. And it's not the kind of stuff you can fix on your own. It's all of the electronic goodies that go crazy and it gets wicked wicked expensive.
I have had a 3 series and currently have an e60 5 series. Most of the issues that go wrong can be avoided with preventative maintenance (cooling system).

The newer generations may be more problematic with electronics.
I wouldnt go near a 7 series for that reason.
 

w3rkn

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M240 has a fake differential.

Only M-Cars from BMW are worth it, The regular 2-series (ie: M240) are lacking compared to a Mustang. The 2.3 EB w/A10 will out perform a 2-series BMW.

Since Ford went with fully independent rear suspension and now MagneRide, there is zero reason to choose a German suspension. BMW was the only way to go & essentially only choice for road course enthusiasts, now BMW is usurped.

BMW is resting on their heritage. The 2018 Mustang is proof of that.
 

wjones14

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M240 has a fake differential.

Only M-Cars from BMW are worth it, The regular 2-series (ie: M240) are lacking compared to a Mustang. The 2.3 EB w/A10 will out perform a 2-series BMW.

Since Ford went with fully independent rear suspension and now MagneRide, there is zero reason to choose a German suspension. BMW was the only way to go & essentially only choice for road course enthusiasts, now BMW is usurped.

BMW is resting on their heritage. The 2018 Mustang is proof of that.
Okay, that's your opinion coming from BMWs for the last 20 years. I'll give my opinion after coming from nothing but Mustang GT 5-speeds for the past 25 years, the last one a 2005 I bought new and kept for 10 years.

Just curious, but when you say there is zero reason to choose a German suspension over a 2018 Mustang with Magneride (which few members of the public have driven yet, btw), are you lumping in AMG and Porsche with that statement?

I loved my '05 GT from the day I bought it to the day I sold it. But I'll list some of the reasons I chose the M235i after testing driving both the BMW and the S550 PP GT.

  • Refinement
  • Overall quality
  • 4 year warranty
  • 4 year free maintenance
  • Small size
  • Fuel economy

I've got almost 10,000 miles on the BMW now, so have a good feel for it. I've also taken it to 3 HPDE track days - Palmer, Watkins Glen, Lime Rock. There's no doubt it's a fun car and a nice car to track. Take it from Randy Pobst when he said it was the best handling new BMW in the last 10 years:

[ame="[MEDIA=youtube]wDKrcZ7xLY8[/MEDIA]"]

I think the BMW suspension is fine. It's a nice compromise of a luxury ride while still being capable on the track.

Full disclosure - I do miss the NA V8 and am waiting patiently for the 2018 Mustang. If it is close to the Camaro SS 1LE, I might trade my BMW for one. Otherwise, I may go for the Camaro. Either way though, I'm not going to bad mouth the M235i/240i, and especially not going to bad mouth its suspension.
 

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.

I don't think the ecoboost 2.3 is underrated from the factory (just by watching stock dyno pulls on youtube) but the bmw's surely is. Really no competition here bmw engines are no joke! n54 n55 b58 are all stout engines... An FBO EB can take on a stock 335, sure but all else equal no cmopetition. My friend has a 335 with the n54 engine and upgraded turbos, the thing makes 600 wheel HP stock engine and intercooler.
Ford sandbagged the ecoboost in the Mustang so the all-mighty GT sales didn't get a hurting. If they wouldn't have sandbagged, the boost would easily be over 350, probably closer to 400 and wouldn't be a trim below the GT any longer. It would be equal. You can see this based on the size of the turbo and the size of the intercooler alone.

Also, people act like Magneride is a gift from the heavens. It isn't a miracle worker. Having Magneride alone doesn't mean you are Richard Petty.

Who the hell wants to drive a BMW, Mercedes, or Audi these days? They all look the same. The same bland, boring, front end has been a BMW trademark since a decade ago. It's just so ugly. If I didn't have the Mustang, I would honestly probably go Volvo. They are fast and stand out.
 

w3rkn

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Okay, that's your opinion coming from BMWs for the last 20 years. I'll give my opinion after coming from nothing but Mustang GT 5-speeds for the past 25 years, the last one a 2005 I bought new and kept for 10 years.

Just curious, but when you say there is zero reason to choose a German suspension over a 2018 Mustang with Magneride (which few members of the public have driven yet, btw), are you lumping in AMG and Porsche with that statement?

I loved my '05 GT from the day I bought it to the day I sold it. But I'll list some of the reasons I chose the M235i after testing driving both the BMW and the S550 PP GT.

  • Refinement
  • Overall quality
  • 4 year warranty
  • 4 year free maintenance
  • Small size
  • Fuel economy

I've got almost 10,000 miles on the BMW now, so have a good feel for it. I've also taken it to 3 HPDE track days - Palmer, Watkins Glen, Lime Rock. There's no doubt it's a fun car and a nice car to track. Take it from Randy Pobst when he said it was the best handling new BMW in the last 10 years:



I think the BMW suspension is fine. It's a nice compromise of a luxury ride while still being capable on the track.

Full disclosure - I do miss the NA V8 and am waiting patiently for the 2018 Mustang. If it is close to the Camaro SS 1LE, I might trade my BMW for one. Otherwise, I may go for the Camaro. Either way though, I'm not going to bad mouth the M235i/240i, and especially not going to bad mouth its suspension.

Yes, any German suspension that comes off an assembly line, and not hand-made, like Porsche, or certain $ MB.

That was the crutch & reason Americans had to buy BMW's over the last 30 years, because we didn't have independent suspensions, or a refined chassis in American cars. American's didn't buy German because of the luxury... that is what 5 & 6 series were for, but for the performance and handling.



Thank you for your opinion, and I am sure after driving older Mustangs, that a BMW M235i felt sublime. But I fear you only test drove an S550, you didn't own one, correct? Have never driven a Mustang with MagneRide, correct..?

So your opinion of the current Mustang, wasn't that compelling as a comparison. I have a lifetime of owning BMWs, and as many here will say, even the Mustang with PP is a better feeling car, than the BMW with ultra-nannies. Less you get an M-Car.



I will concede that the BMW is an all-around better car, but it is not better when it comes to performance. It does have better fit and finish, and perhaps better materials. But it also has a premium associated with it in insurance because of it.

I actually opted out of a M235i and ordered an M2, but kept my 135is instead, because the car was lighter, had better steering & sounded better. Oddly, all 3 had the same engine but the experience between the 135is, M235i & M2 didn't warrant a new purchase.

I drove a GT350 w/magneride and it makes all the difference. And, since learning that the MY2018 Mustang was offering the GT w/magneride, I have since sold my BMW and am ecstatically waiting to ordering mine in March.

I think you will be more than surprised by your new 2018 Mustang. (btw, did you spend the $2,200 for a real LSD on your M235i ?)



PP2 & a helmet is all I will need.
 

wjones14

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Thank you for your opinion, and I am sure after driving older Mustangs, that a BMW M235i felt sublime. But I fear you only test drove an S550, you didn't own one, correct? Have never driven a Mustang with MagneRide, correct..?

So your opinion of the current Mustang, wasn't that compelling as a comparison. I have a lifetime of owning BMWs, and as many here will say, even the Mustang with PP is a better feeling car, than the BMW with ultra-nannies. Less you get an M-Car.

...

(btw, did you spend the $2,200 for a real LSD on your M235i ?)
Sitting here awaiting a blizzard tomorrow, with my M235i covered for the winter, felt like a good time to resurrect this thread and further discuss a couple of your points. :)

Last question first - no I did not buy a real LSD. Yes, I wish it had one, but honestly, the car is good with computer-aided diff. I did 70 laps at Lime Rock this summer, used Sport+ mode (some nannies still active), and that was good for me. I did a bunch of 1:07 laps on a bone stock car with street tires. The best I did with my '05 Mustang was 1:10 (though the Mustang had all-seasons). The point is LSD or not, the car is still a pretty good track car straight from the factory.

To your other points...

So you're saying that since I only test drove an S550 instead of actually owning one, that my opinion isn't really that valid? But your opinion apparently is valid, even though you only test drove a GT350 w/Magneride and never owned an M235i/240i?

Fact is, neither of us owned both an M235i/240i and a non-GT350 Mustang w/Magneride to be able to conclude that either is superior. In fact, neither of us have owned a Mustang GT w/Magneride, so all we can really do is speculate on how good it will be compared to an M235i/240i.

And on your point that "many here will say" the Mustang PP is a better feeling car than the M235i/240i - well of course, it's a Mustang forum. ;) What would the majority say over on the 2 Series forum?

When I was making my buying decision, I test drove the M235i and the Mustang GT PP back-to-back within a few hours of each other, and I ended up with the BMW. So, at that time, I did not think the Mustang was a better feeling car. Aside from the difference in luxury, the biggest thing for me was the size of the car. The BMW felt a LOT smaller and more agile. For me, the small size makes the car easier to drive, and it feels like you're going faster than you really are.

Another thing about the two cars, possibly a nitpick, is the culture difference. For one thing, I took the Performance Center Delivery option on mine, so I bought the car in New Haven CT, but picked it up in South Carolina at the BMW facility. Fully paid for by BMW. It included an overnight stay for two, 3 meals, classroom instruction on driving techniques, sessions on the race track in M235i cars, hot laps with instructors in an M5, wet skid pad driving, and then driving an "obstacle course" in an X3/5 at crazy pitch angles. It ended with a tour of their Greenville SC factory. Just a great, memorable day. It didn't end there though. I can't say enough about how great the dealership treatment has been since I bought the car. I've been back twice for the free annual maintenance (e.g. oil change, wiper blades, cabin air filter, etc.), and it's nothing short of being pampered.

In comparison, I avoided the Ford dealership after taking delivery of my '05, and they basically avoided me. :) Which was actually fine with me, since in 10 years of owning the Mustang, it never had a single problem.

So I'm just taking exception with some of the things you're saying. Even though you have much more BMW ownership experience than me, you never actually owned an M235i, so not sure why you want to bash it so. ;) Obviously you don't agree with Randy Pobst's opinion of the car's abilities and qualities. Not that your opinion doesn't matter, but Randy's opinion is certainly one that should get some respect. :hail:

All that said, once the Performance Pack Level 2 was announced, that's what I'm looking forward to now. I want to get back into a raw, NA V-8. The PP2 looks like a monster! I'm pretty much obsessed with it, and it's so frustrating that PP2 production is apparently on hold for a few months. :doh:

Come spring, hopefully I will be uncovering the BMW and driving it to a Ford dealer to negotiate on a GT premium with active exhaust, 401A interior, and PP2. That's my dream car at the moment.
 
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9secondko

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I don't think the ecoboost 2.3 is underrated from the factory (just by watching stock dyno pulls on youtube) but the bmw's surely is. Really no competition here bmw engines are no joke! n54 n55 b58 are all stout engines... An FBO EB can take on a stock 335, sure but all else equal no cmopetition. My friend has a 335 with the n54 engine and upgraded turbos, the thing makes 600 wheel HP stock engine and intercooler.
The cars you mention aren't in the comparison.
 

Norm Peterson

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I did 70 laps at Lime Rock this summer, used Sport+ mode (some nannies still active), and that was good for me. I did a bunch of 1:07 laps on a bone stock car with street tires. The best I did with my '05 Mustang was 1:10 (though the Mustang had all-seasons). The point is LSD or not, the car is still a pretty good track car straight from the factory.
Do you have any feel for what your '05 would have done with tires comparable to the BMW's? Do you think that 1:07's could have been within your reach?

Your BMW purchase/delivery experience sounds like something that should be more widely available for enthusiasts with a deeper appreciation of their car than just for things like color, styling details, C&C features, and exhaust note.


Aside from the difference in luxury, the biggest thing for me was the size of the car. The BMW felt a LOT smaller and more agile. For me, the small size makes the car easier to drive, and it feels like you're going faster than you really are.
I can agree with smaller and more agile making it easier to drive. But does that make the car feel like it's going faster or slower than is actually the case? Or is it something other than size at work here - seems to me that a more composed car would "drive slower".


Norm
 

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Nomadic

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Indeed the Camaro is an impressive vehicle but once I sat inside, my head hits the roof and I am a pretty short guy (5'4").
You must have had the seat raised all the way. I owned a 1SS. I’m 5’10”. Had plenty of headroom.
 

wjones14

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Do you have any feel for what your '05 would have done with tires comparable to the BMW's? Do you think that 1:07's could have been within your reach?

Your BMW purchase/delivery experience sounds like something that should be more widely available for enthusiasts with a deeper appreciation of their car than just for things like color, styling details, C&C features, and exhaust note.



I can agree with smaller and more agile making it easier to drive. But does that make the car feel like it's going faster or slower than is actually the case? Or is it something other than size at work here - seems to me that a more composed car would "drive slower".


Norm
Yes, tires are the biggest handling improvement you can do, and I think my '05 Mustang on Michelin Pilot Super Sports could probably have equaled the 1:07 laps I did with the BMW. There was a guy in a BRZ on Super Sports who was doing 1:08 laps. My '05 Mustang and the M235i were just about equal in power, but it was the all-seasons holding back the Stang's potential, even though I did go wider than OEM by replacing the 235/55-17 Pirellis with 255/50-17 Kumhos.

On the back-to-back test drives with the M235i and 2015 GT PP, I drove the BMW first. It was on a bumpy back road and it felt like it was flying and sticking. The small size made it seem like it was going faster than it was. My Mini always feels like it's going faster than it is for the same reason. That's the appeal of a small car. On the other hand, the BMW is so refined that when you shut the windows, you can't hear the exhaust, and I hate that since I paid extra for the performance exhaust. The refinement and sound insulation also takes away from the visceral feel my old Mustang had, so you really only get the full effect with the windows open.

I was used to the size of the Mustang, but boy did it feel bigger than ever on the test drive right after driving the BMW.
 

Norm Peterson

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Thanks for the further information.

On the track, I suspect that you gained some ultimate grip with the 255/50's without gaining anything as far as turn-in response and steering precision are concerned. Might have even lost half a step.


On "refinement", I firmly believe that sometimes that can be taken too far, or at least too far for some individual drivers.


Norm
 

w3rkn

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Sitting here awaiting a blizzard tomorrow, with my M235i covered for the winter, felt like a good time to resurrect this thread and further discuss a couple of your points. :)

Last question first - no I did not buy a real LSD. Yes, I wish it had one, but honestly, the car is good with computer-aided diff. I did 70 laps at Lime Rock this summer, used Sport+ mode (some nannies still active), and that was good for me. I did a bunch of 1:07 laps on a bone stock car with street tires. The best I did with my '05 Mustang was 1:10 (though the Mustang had all-seasons). The point is LSD or not, the car is still a pretty good track car straight from the factory.

To your other points...

So you're saying that since I only test drove an S550 instead of actually owning one, that my opinion isn't really that valid? But your opinion apparently is valid, even though you only test drove a GT350 w/Magneride and never owned an M235i/240i?

Fact is, neither of us owned both an M235i/240i and a non-GT350 Mustang w/Magneride to be able to conclude that either is superior. In fact, neither of us have owned a Mustang GT w/Magneride, so all we can really do is speculate on how good it will be compared to an M235i/240i.

And on your point that "many here will say" the Mustang PP is a better feeling car than the M235i/240i - well of course, it's a Mustang forum. ;) What would the majority say over on the 2 Series forum?

When I was making my buying decision, I test drove the M235i and the Mustang GT PP back-to-back within a few hours of each other, and I ended up with the BMW. So, at that time, I did not think the Mustang was a better feeling car. Aside from the difference in luxury, the biggest thing for me was the size of the car. The BMW felt a LOT smaller and more agile. For me, the small size makes the car easier to drive, and it feels like you're going faster than you really are.

Another thing about the two cars, possibly a nitpick, is the culture difference. For one thing, I took the Performance Center Delivery option on mine, so I bought the car in New Haven CT, but picked it up in South Carolina at the BMW facility. Fully paid for by BMW. It included an overnight stay for two, 3 meals, classroom instruction on driving techniques, sessions on the race track in M235i cars, hot laps with instructors in an M5, wet skid pad driving, and then driving an "obstacle course" in an X3/5 at crazy pitch angles. It ended with a tour of their Greenville SC factory. Just a great, memorable day. It didn't end there though. I can't say enough about how great the dealership treatment has been since I bought the car. I've been back twice for the free annual maintenance (e.g. oil change, wiper blades, cabin air filter, etc.), and it's nothing short of being pampered.

In comparison, I avoided the Ford dealership after taking delivery of my '05, and they basically avoided me. :) Which was actually fine with me, since in 10 years of owning the Mustang, it never had a single problem.

So I'm just taking exception with some of the things you're saying. Even though you have much more BMW ownership experience than me, you never actually owned an M235i, so not sure why you want to bash it so. ;) Obviously you don't agree with Randy Pobst's opinion of the car's abilities and qualities. Not that your opinion doesn't matter, but Randy's opinion is certainly one that should get some respect. :hail:

All that said, once the Performance Pack Level 2 was announced, that's what I'm looking forward to now. I want to get back into a raw, NA V-8. The PP2 looks like a monster! I'm pretty much obsessed with it, and it's so frustrating that PP2 production is apparently on hold for a few months. :doh:

Come spring, hopefully I will be uncovering the BMW and driving it to a Ford dealer to negotiate on a GT premium with active exhaust, 401A interior, and PP2. That's my dream car at the moment.
Greetings...

If you have never owned a BMW before, while only ever owning American Mustangs with live rear axles, then of coarse the first time you ever drive a performance BMW, you will be blown away by the refined nature and nimbleness of it..!! Matter of fact, nearly EVERYONE who has ever driven a performance BMW notices the same thing. (You were no different... congratulation!)


Subsequently, as of today you can no longer make those direct buying comparisons, because the Mustang now has Independent Rear Suspension. And now even has an optional IRS w/magneride... which BMW does not have. Essentially there is zero comparison to how your older Mustang drove and how the current 2018 Mustangs drive. They are that different... you reference point is outdated, and nearly pointless. (That is what I was pointing out to you.)


Further more, BMWs no longer have hydraulic steering (which my BMW has & yours does not) so you loose that BMW feel. A special BMW "feel" you probably are unaware of and now that it is gone, essentially any car with e-steering is as good as a BMW feel.

BMWs do not have real Limited Slip Differentials, those cost $2,500k extra. (I know, I paid).


Lastly, I am not knocking your BMW, I was not bashing your car, I was comparing to mine, which is lighter, quicker, with better steering feel and same engine. Though, I am comparing BMW M240i & M2 to the new Mustang, as I am sure Randy Pobst will do in the near future. And He'll most likely pick the Mustang PP2, over a M2.... in a head to head comparison.
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