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E85 worth it?

vaeevictiss

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It's a dead head system. I know guys with this system that run mid to low 9's on full weight cars. North of 850whp on ethanol. It supports way more than that.

Screenshot_20231122_205941_Samsung Notes.jpg
This is interesting. I thought you HAD to have a return style system. whats the best way to run a vac line back to the tank though? would have for that to get pinched or kinked somewhere and it doesnt work.
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HKusp

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There are a lot of options. You can run it along with the fuel lines, you can run it through the firewall then down the kick panel under the door sill that out the inside plastic trim behind the drivers door and underneath the back seat. I am pretty sure I am going to run it with the fuel lines.
 

vaeevictiss

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I will beat this to death. The thing I don't particularly like about the Fore system is it isn't very daily driver friendly. It has no fuel bucket so you have to keep no less than half a tank of fuel in the car to keep the pumps immersed in fuel, or you risk a starvation situation when cornering, or under hard acceleration. This effectively cuts your fuel capacity in half, which is a no go for me, especially when you already are losing mileage when running ethanol.
This all being said, what keeps fuel in the bucket when the tank itself is getting low?
 

engineermike

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My math says that 25 deg temp change of 15 gallons of gasoline causes less than a quart of volume change.

The feds are far too concerned about HC emissions to let car fuel tanks vent freely. Even plastic gas cans don’t have vents anymore.
 

HKusp

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This all being said, what keeps fuel in the bucket when the tank itself is getting low?
There are a 2 or 3 one way flapper valves that allow the fuel to enter the bucket, but don't allow it to run out once it's in.
 

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vaeevictiss

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My math says that 25 deg temp change of 15 gallons of gasoline causes less than a quart of volume change.

The feds are far too concerned about HC emissions to let car fuel tanks vent freely. Even plastic gas cans don’t have vents anymore.
But nothing says i can't add my own lol. I hate unvented gas cans
 

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This is interesting. I thought you HAD to have a return style system. whats the best way to run a vac line back to the tank though? would have for that to get pinched or kinked somewhere and it doesnt work.
It has a "return" it's just right there at the regulator/bucket instead of the regulator being forward at the engine bay. The easiest way to think of it is that you have a feed line and a return line to and from a regulator, if you put the regulator away from the bucket/pumps, you have a return line. As you locate the regulator closer and closer to the bucket, that return line shrinks until it basically becomes zero. It's a returnstyle system, just with the return directly back into the bucket.

It's also why every system is a dead head system, because after the regulator, the fuel dead heads to the rail, so whether that dead head length is short (with the regulator right near the rails) or whether it's longer (with the regulator back in/near the tank) every system is technically a dead head system.
 

HKusp

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The bucket and fuel hat look bad ass!

IMG_2821.jpeg

That's with the regulator removed for the stage 3 set-up, I believe. I think it looks even better with the integrated regulator still installed.

20230813_190445.jpg


20230819_215137.jpg
 

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Angrey

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My math says that 25 deg temp change of 15 gallons of gasoline causes less than a quart of volume change.

The feds are far too concerned about HC emissions to let car fuel tanks vent freely. Even plastic gas cans don’t have vents anymore.
Yep, I screwed up the calc. It's about a 1.6% change in volume for a 25F swing. In any case, the system has to be able to gulp air to keep negative pressures as bay as you consume the total volume of the tank. Here is a thread outlining the components.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/fuel-vapor-canister-diagram.144557/

" A fuel tank valve that allows; 1) air to replace fuel used. 2) air to escape due to heat expansion. 3) a positive shut-off to prevent fuel escape due to splashing or rollover. This is achieved by a two-ball system. The valve must be mounted vertically. We recommend fitting these valves a good distance away from the fuel tank to prevent them from filling up with fuel in the event of hard cornering/braking."
 

engineermike

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As I said earlier, we don’t know the pressure settings on these valves and without that, the argument is moot. I just know the epa doesn’t want vapors escaping ever and ford doesn’t want moisture or other contaminants in the tank so that leads me to believe rare opening of these valves with minimal vapor migration.
 

Angrey

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As I said earlier, we don’t know the pressure settings on these valves and without that, the argument is moot. I just know the epa doesn’t want vapors escaping ever and ford doesn’t want moisture or other contaminants in the tank so that leads me to believe rare opening of these valves with minimal vapor migration.
That's fine, then you simply need to account for the moisture coming from SOMEWHERE. Because it's pretty well anecdotally documented that if you leave E85 in a tank for long periods of time, it not only begins to disassociate and layer, the hydrophilic nature of the ethanol draws in moisture. It's exactly why fuel stations offer "ethanol free" gasoline for small tools and engines that see long durations between uses.

So, the water is coming from SOMEWHERE and it ain't the fuel system components.

If you fill up the tank, and either apply a cap or the capless gate closes, and you use the fuel, just from consumption alone, the system has to draw in 15 gallons of air as you run the tank to zero. Not sure why/how that's controversial to you.

There's a purge system on the tank AND at the fuel rails, although the one at the rails gets recirced into the intake (and ostensibly burned off). It also may play a part in how/why Ford went to these new carbon capture units at the intake (to capture any hydrocarbons that purge into the intake while the motor isn't running or maybe it's off condition crankcase pressure, who knows).
 

engineermike

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...It's exactly why fuel stations offer "ethanol free" gasoline for small tools and engines that see long durations between uses.
Small gas engines have carburetors that are vented to atmosphere, so they are fundamentally different. I buy ethanol-free fuel for everything I own that has an atmospheric tank or carburetor vent. However, my ATV and PWC both have EFI and sealed fuel systems.

If you fill up the tank, and either apply a cap or the capless gate closes, and you use the fuel, just from consumption alone, the system has to draw in 15 gallons of air as you run the tank to zero. Not sure why/how that's controversial to you.
Who said it's controversial? I said I don't know the setting of the vacuum valve so calculating breathing is moot. However, I went ahead and did the math for the air displacement case and it turns out that 15 gallons' worth of air at extremely high humidity only contains about 1/3 of a teaspoon of water. My guess is that if you've witnessed water dropout in a Mustang that it came in with the fuel at the station.
 

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Small gas engines have carburetors that are vented to atmosphere, so they are fundamentally different. I buy ethanol-free fuel for everything I own that has an atmospheric tank or carburetor vent. However, my ATV and PWC both have EFI and sealed fuel systems.



Who said it's controversial? I said I don't know the setting of the vacuum valve so calculating breathing is moot. However, I went ahead and did the math for the air displacement case and it turns out that 15 gallons' worth of air at extremely high humidity only contains about 1/3 of a teaspoon of water. My guess is that if you've witnessed water dropout in a Mustang that it came in with the fuel at the station.
All E85 comes with some amount of water already in it as ethanol is an aziotrope and you can't get it to more than about 95% ethanol using physical methods and typical pressures.

And again, you're assuming the tank is sealed and doesn't breathe. I just showed you a thread with the parts components where it vents not only at the tank, but at the purge valve at the rails.
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