2017 CHEVROLET CAMARO ZL1 VS. 2017 FORD MUSTANG SHELBY GT350R: THE FOREVER WAR

[AirBusPilot]

^Damn..lol

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[Norm Peterson]

FWIW, those calculators do have some value for things like speedometer correction for different tire sizes (where 3% @ 60 mph is less than 2 mph and the 2 mph "error" ends up being on your side because you're really only doing a little over 58 if you use the calculator answer directly).

It's fussy stuff like ultimate top speed, ability to hit 60 in 2nd gear, not needing 3rd at autocross or a big OD gear out on the big tracks, or needing to shift just before the finish line at drag racing where it does (or at least can). I guess that knowing this, you could always multiply the listed tire OD by 0.97 and use any of the online calculators. Or write your own little app that considers it internally.


Norm

 

[ElAntonius]

Not to bring back a dead horse, but Jack Baruth over on TTAC has some commentary on the ZL1-1LE Ring time:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...ing-aint-got-actually-dont-mean-thing-period/

 

[Darkane]

FWIW, those calculators do have some value for things like speedometer correction for different tire sizes (where 3% @ 60 mph is less than 2 mph and the 2 mph "error" ends up being on your side because you're really only doing a little over 58 if you use the calculator answer directly).

It's fussy stuff like ultimate top speed, ability to hit 60 in 2nd gear, not needing 3rd at autocross or a big OD gear out on the big tracks, or needing to shift just before the finish line at drag racing where it does (or at least can). I guess that knowing this, you could always multiply the listed tire OD by 0.97 and use any of the online calculators. Or write your own little app that considers it internally.


Norm

Thank you Sir. I learned something, tis a good day!

 

[Minn19]

Not to bring back a dead horse, but Jack Baruth over on TTAC has some commentary on the ZL1-1LE Ring time:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...ing-aint-got-actually-dont-mean-thing-period/

Another great article! I'm not just singling out the Camaro or GM here. This is a problem across the board with many manufacturers.

 

[4V Mayhem]

Not sure what you're posing... i don't street race but I'd be glad to meet up and talk cars and hangout.

I literally laughed. Definitely not a street race challenge. That was another chapter in my life. I was poking a little fun. Just meeting up and talking cars is all. I'd like to check out an R up close and personal. I think you'd like the ZL1 too, if you have seen one in person before. [MENTION=15817]DrumReaper[/MENTION]

Nobody street races these days. Everyone just has a road course or a closed road they rent or they go to Mexico or their buddy has property with a road on it that just happens to run parallel to a highway with traffic going in the opposite direction...but not street racing. Heavens no, lol!!

 

[Glenn G]

Not to bring back a dead horse, but Jack Baruth over on TTAC has some commentary on the ZL1-1LE Ring time:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...ing-aint-got-actually-dont-mean-thing-period/

Exactly what I have been trying to say. Great find.

 

[AGGT350]

Not to bring back a dead horse, but Jack Baruth over on TTAC has some commentary on the ZL1-1LE Ring time:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...ing-aint-got-actually-dont-mean-thing-period/

Can someone please give some love to the Camaro :shrug:
"So if Ring times don’t mean much for the overall excellence of a production car, what’s the point in setting a time? Well, there is no point — except for marketing. Which leads to my next complaint about the times: virtually all of them are set by ringer cars. This goes double, triple, and quadruple for forced-induction cars. Given the ease with which some mook in a California strip mall can liberate an extra 200 hp from a supercharged or turbocharged V-8..."

BUT gotta love that NA V8 Mr. :ford: :hail:

 

[Glenn G]

Ok, now on a serious note. What is your best time on the 'ring? For real now,

Not impressive enough to compete with the big wigs or manufacturer times,
and I have yet to have a completely clean lap, (I'm not paying a couple of grand euro to have the track all to myself for 1 lap)
on my best ever lap I had this happen at Brunchen

I also had a passenger on that run which was a good 180 lbs of extra weight. Here he is hanging on for dear life lol

That and I also don't have the video currently available for proof anyways so I'm not going to put up a number with no way to defend it.

The R33 posted the first Sub 8 minute Ring time for a production car way back in '95 so if we take the ZL-1s ring time as gospel that's the only number we should be looking at right?

 

[PencilGeek]

305/30x20 = 27.20" tire diameter
3.73 rear end gearing
4th gear 1:1:00
6500 rpm redline

141 mph @ 6500 rpm

Same as above, but 2.85 gearing, lock up converter.

184.6 mph @ 6500 rpm.

Here's one of many top speed calculators:

http://www.csgnetwork.com/speedcalc.html

Edit: The 6 speed ZL1 is maxed out (redline) in 5th gear at 173 mph.

GM just announced the A10 version tops at 198 mph.

Here's the program I've used, and here's my experience with it.
http://www.cartestsoftware.com/

One feature I like is the ability to input the data from your dyno chart and select whether it's at the wheels or at the crank. I've been to the Mojave Mile, Texas Mile, airport runway events, etc. I have multiple vBox's, and a very nice Kestrel weather tracker with wind speed and direction.

Inputting all the data into CarTest is a bit daunting because there's two full pages worth of input screens. You can be as accurate as you want, or skip and use defaults as you wish.

When I've taken the time to input all of the data I collected for weather, wind speed, direction, dyno chart, tire size, wheel weight, rolling resistance, etc., then push the button to analyze the results -- CarTest has been almost dead accurate every time to what my vBox data showed as the actual results. For example, CarTest was within about 1/3 MPH on my Texas Mile speed; was within about 1/10 - 1/3 second accurate on 60-130 MPH times, etc. Moral to the story: garbage in, garbage out. But if you take the time to get all of the data into the simulator (expect to spend about 20-30 minutes doing this), in my experience, the simulator mentioned above was very good. It was definitely close enough for Government work. :cheers:

 

[PencilGeek]

Exactly, my manual with the 3.73 will never get to the A10 with the 2.85 axle and top end of 202.3. It is just impossible. 173 sounds correct. I will find some place whenever and see what it will do. I have heard of the Texas Mile and that might be fun.

http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us...ages/news/us/en/2017/feb/0220-camaro-zl1.html

You won't hit top speed at the Texas Mile. The Texas Mile is a standing mile, not flying mile. That means you are measured from dead stop to 1-mile. You'll never reach top speed from a dead stop within 1-mile.

 

[ElAntonius]

Can someone please give some love to the Camaro :shrug:
"So if Ring times don’t mean much for the overall excellence of a production car, what’s the point in setting a time? Well, there is no point — except for marketing. Which leads to my next complaint about the times: virtually all of them are set by ringer cars. This goes double, triple, and quadruple for forced-induction cars. Given the ease with which some mook in a California strip mall can liberate an extra 200 hp from a supercharged or turbocharged V-8..."

BUT gotta love that NA V8 Mr. :ford: :hail:

I happen to like the ZL1 a good bit, though I wouldn't bother with the 1LE version for my own personal use.

I just dislike "lap records", particularly at the Nurburgring as a standard of comparison.

I think this quote is kind of operative:
"Supposedly this Camaro is faster than a Ferrari Enzo around the Ring. Would you be willing to bet your home (for Gen Xers) or your retirement (for Boomers) or your iPhone (for Millennials) on it being true at Laguna Seca, with free choice of tires and plenty of setup time for both parties?"

EDIT: also:
"I’m certain that the ZL1 1LE is a very fast car. It has all the numbers in its favor and it was developed by some of the best and most committed performance engineers in the world. But this ‘Ring-record stuff is nothing but dust in the wind, so to speak. Don’t buy a car based on its Ring time, or on what it does in the hands of a “pro driver” who can be affected by everything from the weather to a headache to his list of potential sponsors for next year’s IMSA season."

 

[roygriffin2020]

Not impressive enough to compete with the big wigs or manufacturer times,
and I have yet to have a completely clean lap, (I'm not paying a couple of grand euro to have the track all to myself for 1 lap)
on my best ever lap I had this happen at Brunchen

I also had a passenger on that run which was a good 180 lbs of extra weight. Here he is hanging on for dear life lol

That and I also don't have the video currently available for proof anyways so I'm not going to put up a number with no way to defend it.

The R33 posted the first Sub 8 minute Ring time for a production car way back in '95 so if we take the ZL-1s ring time as gospel that's the only number we should be looking at right?

You said, "the R33" not "my R33". That was not you driving I presume. What is your best time? You don't have to have a clean track to have a best lap. You can pass people. I am just curious.

 

[roygriffin2020]

You won't hit top speed at the Texas Mile. The Texas Mile is a standing mile, not flying mile. That means you are measured from dead stop to 1-mile. You'll never reach top speed from a dead stop within 1-mile.

Correct. As I have stated before, it would take closer to 2 miles to come close to top speed. I was just stating it might be fun on a closed course and pay the fee and run it.

 

[roygriffin2020]

I happen to like the ZL1 a good bit, though I wouldn't bother with the 1LE version for my own personal use.

I just dislike "lap records", particularly at the Nurburgring as a standard of comparison.

I think this quote is kind of operative:
"Supposedly this Camaro is faster than a Ferrari Enzo around the Ring. Would you be willing to bet your home (for Gen Xers) or your retirement (for Boomers) or your iPhone (for Millennials) on it being true at Laguna Seca, with free choice of tires and plenty of setup time for both parties?"

EDIT: also:
"I’m certain that the ZL1 1LE is a very fast car. It has all the numbers in its favor and it was developed by some of the best and most committed performance engineers in the world. But this ‘Ring-record stuff is nothing but dust in the wind, so to speak. Don’t buy a car based on its Ring time, or on what it does in the hands of a “pro driver” who can be affected by everything from the weather to a headache to his list of potential sponsors for next year’s IMSA season."

That is a true statement. Knowing what a car can do does not mean it will do with me. But knowing a Camry can do this and a GT350 can do that, you can judge by statistics what is the better performer for you.

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