Tuned EB Brief Misfires

[ronemca]

Wow. I am profoundly grateful for this thought-provoking and carefully considered response. My first & primary question is:

If indeed the charcoal canister is (or has been) soaked...is it finished? Must be replaced? I ask because - in the grand scheme of things it's not that expensive - and I believe I could do it myself unless there is some sort of strange tooling and/or procedure associated with this repair(?)

Or...

Is there a test or a visual/auditory examination I might perform to verify this condition? If I removed it, would it slosh? Or dribble fuel out one of the ports? Both?

And what about the line(s) between the canister and the EPV on the engine? I wonder if they could/should be gently blown out? Or is this risky? Perhaps there are other check valves present in the line that would not survive a gentle blast of compressed air(?)

Or am I wasting time and I should just replace the damn thing and call it a day?

This? GU5Z-9D653-A

Sponsored

 

[TorqueMan]

If indeed the charcoal canister is (or has been) soaked...is it finished? Must be replaced? I mask because - in the grand scheme of things it's not that expensive - and I believe I could do it myself unless there is some sort of strange tooling and/or procedure associated with this repair(?)

I don't know enough about the installation in our cars to comment on the difficulty. Given that you are messing about with fuel, I would just take it to a reputable ASE mechanic with a shop. They should have the necessary tools and equipment to ensure safety while dealing with an open fuel system.

Is there a test or a visual/auditory examination I might perform to verify this condition?

Yes, you just have to test if the tank vents. You can probably find info on how to do it online, but this is another case I would leave up to a pro. If you get to much pressure in the tank it might rupture, or just buldge out somewhere you don't want it too. Conversely, too much vacuum could cause it to collapse in on itself.

And what about the line(s) between the canister and the EPV on the engine? I wonder if they could/should be gently blown out? Or is this risky? Perhaps there are other check valves present in the line that would not survive a gentle blast of compressed air(?)

I don't think the line is blocked, but that is one way to add pressure to the tank to test venting. Again, however, I would leave it to a pro to ensure all the proper safety procedures are followed.

Whatever you do, you should absolutely have the canister tested before you replace it. This is a complete guess on my part; I hate for you to spend a bunch of money replacing a part on my say-so if it doesn't really need to be replaced.

 

[ronemca]

As my loyal readers can imagine, this issue is DOMINATING my thoughts. It is extremely frustrating. But behind the scenes I have been reading a lot online - searching for a clue. And one of the problems that I found mentioned repeatedly for F150 EB owners is condensation in the IC. Several of those guys solved their issue(s) by drilling a tiny drain hole in their IC and letting out a fair amount of oily water! (or watery oil) So that has me wondering:

Since the DTC (P2196) is telling me that the O2 sensor is smelling excessive fuel -- and since it is unlikely (but admittedly not impossible) that the sensor itself is defective -- I wonder if there is an environmental variable that is causing RICHNESS. And the sensor is doing its job by reporting this condition (as opposed to being defective) And since my "episodes" generally only occur under heavy acceleration, I'm wondering if:

1) dramatic IC (boost) pressure forces water up the cold side pipe and into the engine
2) dramatic IC (boost) pressure causes water to splash onto the MAF sensor, which IIRC is in the IC outlet tube on the LHS of the IC.

Or both.

Maybe? No way?

Under heavy accel...how would the engine react if you deliberately injected a significant amount of water into the TB?
Under heavy accel, what message would the MAF sensor send to the ECU if you deliberately sprayed water on it?

What itches my butt is the fact that the problem self-corrects! And fairly quickly, too - with no corrective action from me. Yes - there was a time when I thought I had a loose wire or a faulty ignition coil etc. etc. - but I discovered that if I just shut down for a bit...the issue disappears. Sometimes it disappears even if I don't shut down.

I'm just putting this out there - clearly I am out of my depth, but perhaps these words will remind someone of something they have heard or read.

* * Addendum:
The self-healing happened again yesterday. During normal operation, my A/F number is around 14 when I'm on the pedal, and always falls to 20.0 every time I lift off the accelerator. But yesterday while driving along at modest speed the A/F numbers suddenly became erratic, and the engine began to splutter. When lifting off the accel, the A/F ratio fell well below 20 - reaching a low of 9.8 or so with no pedal applied. It was coughing alot (and roaring if I applied accel -refusing to accept accel pedal) - and if I lifted off the pedal the engine would really falter; rpm's falling to 450 or thereabouts and either stalling or very nearly stalling. I gritted my teeth and DID NOT pull over, and after a mile or so it self-corrected and resumed normal operation (no noise - no swinging A/F numbers - strong and solid performance as usual)

And two days ago - for the very first time ever - at a stoplight the RPM's were hunting. It was sitting at its usual 750 idle...then it would swing up to around 1250...then back to 750...than back to 1250. This swinging happened 3 or 4 times whilst waiting for the light to change, and once I had pulled away from the light it stopped doing that and behaved normally. And that is the ONLY time that scenario has occurred since I bought the car.

This on again/off again behavior really has me thinking a sticky injector, or that it's picking up water from the IC. More than one person has suggested a vacuum-related issue -- and I acknowledge that heat would exacerbate this, as a tiny crack or pinhole could open up as rubber expands -- but it shouldn't self-correct while I am still underway. The heat would remain constant...therefore the crack or pinhole would remain open...therefore the issue should continue.

 

[Brian V]

You are grasping at straws just to come up with a solution . Return it to stock and take it to dealer ( mechanic )

 

[TorqueMan]

As my loyal readers can imagine, this issue is DOMINATING my thoughts. It is extremely frustrating. But behind the scenes I have been reading a lot online - searching for a clue. And one of the problems that I found mentioned repeatedly for F150 EB owners is condensation in the IC.

I haven't heard of this as an issue for the 2.3L EcoBoost; given that your car ran with the Mishimoto IC for quite some time without an issue I doubt this is your problem.

Several of those guys solved their issue(s) by drilling a tiny drain hole in their IC and letting out a fair amount of water!

I'm just putting this out there - clearly I am out of my depth, but perhaps these words will remind someone of something they have heard or read.

Given your admitted lack of knowledge in this area, I would strongly urge you not to start drilling holes in expensive components. Your troubleshooting efforts will become an order of magnitude more difficult if you don't follow some kind of protocol. I suggest changing only one parameter at a time, then waiting to see what happens before changing something else. You've got some components on the way; I'd wait to get those installed and see what's what before doing anything else.

If you want to determine if you're getting water in your intake just keep the tools you need with you to remove the charge pipe on the turbo side of the intercooler. When the car starts acting up shut it down and pull off the charge pipe. If you have enough condensation in the intake to cause the problem you're describing it will be readily apparent.

 

[ronemca]

Excellent points. In fact - beyond the two parts that are inbound (only one of which I plan to swap immediately...for exactly the reason you mention) - I had not intended to make any other alterations. Rather, I just want to get some dialogue going. Besides yourself, there are likely a couple of very clever guys out there whose interest/involvement I hope to stimulate. And if they are quietly following this saga...perhaps the details I am publicizing will paint a picture!

 

[ronemca]

Update:
Despite the logical & greatly-appreciated advice from the TorqueMan...I actually made two changes at the same time. (I know - I'm stubborn that way - I do it alot.) I replaced the Charcoal Canister and I altered the START/STOP parameters on my WMI controller slightly. The CC replacement was easy, btw. As for the WMI settings, I read up alot on the [P2196] DTC, and I theorized that - maybe - what was occurring was excessive alcohol (fuel) being sensed by the O2 sensor. Here is a link...followed by an excerpt of text to support my theory:

https://www.yourmechanic.com/articl...nal-stuck-rich-bank-1-sensor-1-by-robert-kulp
It is a common mistake to assume a rich condition is a result of too much fuel being injected into the motor. The more accurate reasoning is there is too much fuel in relation to air. Hence, the term air fuel ratio. Whenever diagnosing a code such as this, it is paramount to always consider this. It is very common to have a bad ignition component, or lack of spark to a cylinder, yet the PCM will still command fuel to the injector. This will result in unburned fuel being pumped into the exhaust. Now the relation between oxygen and fuel has changed in the exhaust system and the O2 interprets this as less oxygen which the PCM interprets as more fuel.

When it opens, the EVAP Purge Valve is expecting some vapor. Fumes - not raw fuel. Therefore, the PCM would be "taken by surprise" by this event.
And since the WMI system is triggered solely by boost pressure, it would have no awareness of that rush of unexpected fuel.
Further...
The WMI system would also have no awareness of water coming up the cold side pipe from the IC.

Therefore, since my episodes only occur under heavy acceleration (max boost) -- which is when the WMI injection volume is at its highest AND the likelihood of water being blown through the IC is the greatest -- it seems logical that the O2 sensor is smelling excessive [unburned] fuel resulting from unburned gasoline or unburned Methanol. Or both.

I realize I'm talking through my hat - but I'm not so arrogant that I am embarrassed to think out loud in a public forum. This is how we all learn.

*/ * EDIT */ *
I came across this page:
https://www.engine-codes.com/p2196_ford.html
...where they said this:
The front heated oxygen sensor (or O2 sensor 1) is placed into the exhaust manifold. It detects the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gas compared to the outside air. The heated oxygen sensor 1 has a closed-end tube made of ceramic zirconia. The zirconia generates voltage from approximately 1V in richer conditions to 0V in leaner conditions. A heated oxygen sensor (HO2S) indicating rich at the end of a test is trying to correct for an over-lean condition.

WTF?! Now it can be over-LEAN?? That inconsistency is annoying.

(Where's my tin foil hat...?)

 

[Brian V]

Update:
Despite the logical & greatly-appreciated advice from the TorqueMan...I actually made two changes at the same time. (I know - I'm stubborn that way - I do it alot.) I replaced the Charcoal Canister and I altered the START/STOP parameters on my WMI controller slightly. The CC replacement was easy, btw. As for the WMI settings, I read up alot on the [P2196] DTC, and I theorized that - maybe - what was occurring was excessive alcohol (fuel) being sensed by the O2 sensor. Here is a link...followed by an excerpt of text to support my theory:

https://www.yourmechanic.com/articl...nal-stuck-rich-bank-1-sensor-1-by-robert-kulp
It is a common mistake to assume a rich condition is a result of too much fuel being injected into the motor. The more accurate reasoning is there is too much fuel in relation to air. Hence, the term air fuel ratio. Whenever diagnosing a code such as this, it is paramount to always consider this. It is very common to have a bad ignition component, or lack of spark to a cylinder, yet the PCM will still command fuel to the injector. This will result in unburned fuel being pumped into the exhaust. Now the relation between oxygen and fuel has changed in the exhaust system and the O2 interprets this as less oxygen which the PCM interprets as more fuel.

When it opens, the EVAP Purge Valve is expecting some vapor. Fumes - not raw fuel. Therefore, the PCM would be "taken by surprise" by this event.
And since the WMI system is triggered solely by boost pressure, it would have no awareness of that rush of unexpected fuel.
Further...
The WMI system would also have no awareness of water coming up the cold side pipe from the IC.

Therefore, since my episodes only occur under heavy acceleration (max boost) -- which is when the WMI injection volume is at its highest AND the likelihood of water being blown through the IC is the greatest -- it seems logical that the O2 sensor is smelling excessive [unburned] fuel resulting from unburned gasoline or unburned Methanol. Or both.

I realize I'm talking through my hat - but I'm not so arrogant that I am embarrassed to think out loud in a public forum. This is how we all learn.

*/ * EDIT */ *
I came across this page:
https://www.engine-codes.com/p2196_ford.html
...where they said this:
The front heated oxygen sensor (or O2 sensor 1) is placed into the exhaust manifold. It detects the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gas compared to the outside air. The heated oxygen sensor 1 has a closed-end tube made of ceramic zirconia. The zirconia generates voltage from approximately 1V in richer conditions to 0V in leaner conditions. A heated oxygen sensor (HO2S) indicating rich at the end of a test is trying to correct for an over-lean condition.

WTF?! Now it can be over-LEAN?? That inconsistency is annoying.

(Where's my tin foil hat...?)

I have been waiting for you to get around to your WMI system ...
There is a few more ideas being tossed around with this system than meets the eye .. you need to do more research about your system and learn the ins and outs .

Hence my revert to stock ..

Do your own research young man . Albeit you choose to ask for help ,but being diligent at your end is beneficial to you ..

 

[ronemca]

... being diligent at your end is beneficial to you ..

Indeed. I'll get to the bottom of it!

 

[ronemca]

I apologize. I know that there are literally thousands of people hungrily awaiting my every post...and I have just discovered that I didn't follow up like I should have:

I solved my problem - it turned out to be excessive water/methanol injection volume.

When I originally installed the W/M system, there was no way to choose the "optimal" injection parameters. Should I set the START at 1? 8? 15? Likewise, should I set the STOP at 15? 18? 21? I just randomly chose the full range (START at 1/STOP at 21) And it seemed to work alright for a few weeks, although I was going through joy juice pretty fast. But hey - what's the "normal" rate of consumption, anyway? There are alot of factors; temperature, W/M mixture, tires, tuning parameters and of course driving style!

But when I had unsuccessfully tried so many other things to solve my bizarre issue, I decided: what the hell? I'll lower the STOP setting on the WMI controller. And that did it.

I lowered it to about 15, and my problem vanished. And then - every few days for awhile I raised it about 1 unit to try to ascertain the threshold. It's now at about 19.5 and it's been rock steady for around 18 days, so I guess I should add another unit and see. But the bottom line is - I'm good now (and mighty relieved!)

Sponsored