How bad did ford Sandbag the Ecoboost?

spdracerUT said:

The Mustang and Focus turbine wheels are basically the same design, but with the Focus turbine wheel having the full back disk and being beefed up a bit structurally to handle higher stresses. I think they may be different materials too with the Focus turbine being higher grade to handle higher EGTs, but I can't remember. They have the same blade geometries/aero. IIRC, the turbine wheel of the Focus turbo is the same as used in the turbos for the BMW M5.

Anyway, the Vargas Stage 2 turbine wheel is just an old school GT3071 turbine wheel which is a cut-down standard GT30 turbine wheel (60mm diameter vs. the cut down 56.5mm); it has a completely different blade geometry than the stock Mustang/Focus turbine wheels. The current Garrett GTX29 uses the cut-down turbine wheel you see with the Vargas Stage 2.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of hybrid turbos which cram larger than stock turbine wheels into the original turbine housings. The OEMs do a lot of optimization of the turbine housing/turbine wheel pairings to get the best efficiency. So by remachining the turbine housing to fit in a bigger turbine wheel than the housing was originally designed for, there are performance compromises. Not to say that you can't get decent performance, but just not the best compared to a properly designed pairing of housing/wheel.

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That may be true but Ford does not optimize for performance, its hard to claim that with a $600 turbo because that's what a stock drop in unit costs and it peters out about 400WHP, making it a very entry level unit, and it dies real quick mid 5K rpms. Hybrid turbos do not just get slapped together and here you go there is a fair amount of research and work that goes into them to ensure they can match a stock spool index but provide increased performance and efficiency using the same housing (albeit ported housing).

What Ford did was they opted for low end performace to give you a GT like 1st and 2nd gear experience but with gas mileage in mind, and ultimately the stock EBM experience is just ok.

A V8 swap is just plain cool for so many reasons previously stated, those who keep saying its cheaper for a built 2.3 are crazy, it absolutely is not cheaper, after pulling the motor swapping it for the built one with labor being an added cost regardless if you pay someone or not, for a good built 2.3 minimum is 6K, not just forged rods and pistons, but better valve train, crank, ported heads, cams etc to get a higher red line, all said and done just to get without upgrading the turbo 400WHP its not a stretch to pay 8K for a complete 5.0 setup and do it yourself. and just do basic bolt ons. (or 12k for a used 5.2 which I found online too.)

5.0yote said:

That may be true but Ford does not optimize for performance, its hard to claim that with a $600 turbo because that's what a stock drop in unit costs and it peters out about 400WHP, making it a very entry level unit, and it dies real quick mid 5K rpms. Hybrid turbos do not just get slapped together and here you go there is a fair amount of research and work that goes into them to ensure they can match a stock spool index but provide increased performance and efficiency using the same housing (albeit ported housing).

What Ford did was they opted for low end performace to give you a GT like 1st and 2nd gear experience but with gas mileage in mind, and ultimately the stock EBM experience is just ok.

A V8 swap is just plain cool for so many reasons previously stated, those who keep saying its cheaper for a built 2.3 are crazy, it absolutely is not cheaper, after pulling the motor swapping it for the built one with labor being an added cost regardless if you pay someone or not, for a good built 2.3 minimum is 6K, not just forged rods and pistons, but better valve train, crank, ported heads, cams etc to get a higher red line, all said and done just to get without upgrading the turbo 400WHP its not a stretch to pay 8K for a complete 5.0 setup and do it yourself. and just do basic bolt ons. (or 12k for a used 5.2 which I found online too.)

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Is that the route your heading into..

Do it ..
DO IT:cheers:

20,000 grand and drop yote 8 is cheaper than 2018
If your car played off.. 50,000 grand will get used 350
All day with track atack package new gt 45,000 or so..

Yes hybrid turbo like Vargas use close to the same housing
but making 450 whp is not stretch for this I'm doing it..

trippleyelo said:

Is that the route your heading into..

Do it ..
DO IT:cheers:

20,000 grand and drop yote 8 is cheaper than 2018
If your car played off.. 50,000 grand will get used 350
All day with track atack package new gt 45,000 or so..

Yes hybrid turbo like Vargas use close to the same housing
but making 450 whp is not stretch for this I'm doing it..

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My point is that for some people when they purchase a car like myself I tend to drop a good deposit down, not just the min, usually between 5K and 15K. I no not everyone does this, I am just saying. I do however mod my mustangs every year in the spring to give me something to do. This usually is an extensive item. A good built 2.3 is between 6.5 to 8.2K with a proper build. The time it takes you to drop the K member engine and all and swap out the 2.3 is nearly the same as plopping a mild used 5.0 (Minus the in car harnesses.)

I know we have a member that has done it, and the beauty of this is the ease in which to do it as the platform shares both power plants so there is no mods needed. It is on my list of possible options in the spring.

There is something about doing something on a grand scale just for the sake of doing it. I got flack for swapping my 6r80 to an mt82 in my 11 3.7 vert, but it was cost effective after sale of the old parts and the car was more fun afterward. So I see this in the same light.

However as I have posted in another thread here in my case I am not certain I am keeping mine due to an outstanding issue that needs to be found and fixed. =) This week its going in the shop that is what will determine what I am doing in March.

5.0yote said:

There is something about doing something on a grand scale just for the sake of doing it. I got flack for swapping my 6r80 to an mt82 in my 11 3.7 vert, but it was cost effective after sale of the old parts and the car was more fun afterward. So I see this in the same light.

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This. I actually think it's a pretty cool idea, and one I would actually probably go if my block gave out (unless warranty covered me with a free motor of course.) These cars are pretty damn modular, so it makes it that much easier. Of course a swap is never going to be "easy" but hell, if you are already going through the trouble of doing a blown 2.3 to new 2.3/rebuilt 2.3 swap...why not go for the 5.0 for the same or a little more cash. To me that not only seems like the more "fun" option, but really...the more financially wise option as well. (I"m sorry but a used 2.3 is NEVER going to sell for the same amount as a GT when you go to sell it.) Not to mention you come ahead in the reliability factor as well.

.

Spykexx said:

This. I actually think it's a pretty cool idea, and one I would actually probably go if my block gave out (unless warranty covered me with a free motor of course.) These cars are pretty damn modular, so it makes it that much easier. Of course a swap is never going to be "easy" but hell, if you are already going through the trouble of doing a blown 2.3 to new 2.3/rebuilt 2.3 swap...why not go for the 5.0 for the same or a little more cash. To me that not only seems like the more "fun" option, but really...the more financially wise option as well. (I"m sorry but a used 2.3 is NEVER going to sell for the same amount as a GT when you go to sell it.) Not to mention you come ahead in the reliability factor as well.

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Might as well buy a used GT(the whole car) at that point.

Ebm said:

Might as well buy a used GT(the whole car) at that point.

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Not necessarily. If your motor isn't covered by warranty, you are going to take that massive hit in either replacing it, or selling it with a bad motor. Losing any mods you have done that aren't easily replaceable. And finding one with miles as low as you can find on these take out motors? Good luck coming close to your sell value compared to the gap in price. I think you could easily come out ahead doing the swap if you did it yourself.

(Also you get to keep lower insurance rates.)

Lets not forget the experience of actually doing it! It's usually only daunting the first time. Be a great project with your kids etc.

5.0yote said:

My point is that for some people when they purchase a car like myself I tend to drop a good deposit down, not just the min, usually between 5K and 15K. I no not everyone does this, I am just saying. I do however mod my mustangs every year in the spring to give me something to do. This usually is an extensive item. A good built 2.3 is between 6.5 to 8.2K with a proper build. The time it takes you to drop the K member engine and all and swap out the 2.3 is nearly the same as plopping a mild used 5.0 (Minus the in car harnesses.)

I know we have a member that has done it, and the beauty of this is the ease in which to do it as the platform shares both power plants so there is no mods needed. It is on my list of possible options in the spring.

There is something about doing something on a grand scale just for the sake of doing it. I got flack for swapping my 6r80 to an mt82 in my 11 3.7 vert, but it was cost effective after sale of the old parts and the car was more fun afterward. So I see this in the same light.

However as I have posted in another thread here in my case I am not certain I am keeping mine due to an outstanding issue that needs to be found and fixed. =) This week its going in the shop that is what will determine what I am doing in March.

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Not to mention the insurance discount, the car will have a 2.3 rate which would help with cost over its life

DUNDEM said:

Not to mention the insurance discount, the car will have a 2.3 rate which would help with cost over its life

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Yeah the biggest problem would be the emissions testing explaining the motor being swapped.

As far as a previous comment, there are many issues in that, one being finding a 15 GT platform that is below the cost of the swap as a whole car. Good luck, its too new a platform to find one below 20K not wrecked.

For me my car has 42K so I am only 18K away from my warranty being up anyway, that is like only 7 months of driving for me. Anything I do at this point going forward is moot as far as my current engine is concerned. If I blow it, its 3 to 6k to replace depending on new or used engine + labor and parts.

Realistically there is no downside to doing a 5.0 swap with the exception of time, and making sure your supporting parts are there. (radiator, brakes, springs, etc.)

The thing with my car is I like the options it has, and the color. I could in the spring trade out to a PP base GT same color at a local dealer for like 24K, I would gain the PP options, but loose the leather, heated seats, heated side mirrors, Sync 3 etc.

We will see what spring brings I guess hehe.

5.0yote said:

Yeah the biggest problem would be the emissions testing explaining the motor being swapped.

As far as a previous comment, there are many issues in that, one being finding a 15 GT platform that is below the cost of the swap as a whole car. Good luck, its too new a platform to find one below 20K not wrecked.

For me my car has 42K so I am only 18K away from my warranty being up anyway, that is like only 7 months of driving for me. Anything I do at this point going forward is moot as far as my current engine is concerned. If I blow it, its 3 to 6k to replace depending on new or used engine + labor and parts.

Realistically there is no downside to doing a 5.0 swap with the exception of time, and making sure your supporting parts are there. (radiator, brakes, springs, etc.)

The thing with my car is I like the options it has, and the color. I could in the spring trade out to a PP base GT same color at a local dealer for like 24K, I would gain the PP options, but loose the leather, heated seats, heated side mirrors, Sync 3 etc.

We will see what spring brings I guess hehe.

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*cough* Some of us already have the upgraded radiator, and GT brakes. Hell you can get takeoff springs for pretty much nothing on here lol. Some would probably pay you to take them. I've seen some people are finding the 4 piston GT brakes for insanely low prices on ebay/here as well from people upgrading.

5.0yote said:

The thing with my car is I like the options it has, and the color. I could in the spring trade out to a PP base GT same color at a local dealer for like 24K, I would gain the PP options, but loose the leather, heated seats, heated side mirrors, Sync 3 etc.

We will see what spring brings I guess hehe.

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I traded a 15 Premium EB PP for a 17 Premium GT non-PP.

You can get most of the 15-17 PP parts for not much money. You can save even more shopping gently used/take-off. These are all prices you can get now as I've been shopping/watching prices. My GT wasn't a PP, but it'll be as close as possible eventually, or better.

- Gauges and Dash Trim ~250
- PP Radiator for GT - ~$150
- FP Street Pack (basically PP suspension, plus lowering springs) $950 (new)
- 15in Brembo w/Rotor ~$450-$700 - the last thing I'd do.
- Wheels would be a wash. Keep what it has, get what you want, or look online for take-off wheels/tires from a PP GT. I'm keeping mine.
- Rear Differential with 3.73's. Be a tougher one, money wise. I've not shopped this, because I'm happy with my 3.55s.

All of that to say, if you found a nice GT premium with the features you have, you could do the PP parts without too much trouble and have both.

Spykexx said:

*cough* Some of us already have the upgraded radiator, and GT brakes. Hell you can get takeoff springs for pretty much nothing on here lol. Some would probably pay you to take them. I've seen some people are finding the 4 piston GT brakes for insanely low prices on ebay/here as well from people upgrading.

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Yup I know. I am just as open to doing the V8 swap as I am a full built 2.3L and better turbo, I have no misgivings on the pros and cons of both, just they are both really close cost wise so I am not sweating it. As far as just get a used GT, that is an option as well and its on my table. In the end I will figure out what I am doing coming this March. I have been paying down my current loan so the car has no negative equity but its surprising how much its lost in value since 2016...

5.0yote said:

Yup I know. I am just as open to doing the V8 swap as I am a full built 2.3L and better turbo, I have no misgivings on the pros and cons of both, just they are both really close cost wise so I am not sweating it. As far as just get a used GT, that is an option as well and its on my table. In the end I will figure out what I am doing coming this March. I have been paying down my current loan so the car has no negative equity but its surprising how much its lost in value since 2016...

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Like any sports car your not buying for resale " smiles per mile"you know what they say about boats to " there like toilets" you just flush money down them.. Not to change your thought the first 2years are horrid depreciation wise..:cheers:

5.0yote said:

Yup I know. I am just as open to doing the V8 swap as I am a full built 2.3L and better turbo, I have no misgivings on the pros and cons of both, just they are both really close cost wise so I am not sweating it. As far as just get a used GT, that is an option as well and its on my table. In the end I will figure out what I am doing coming this March. I have been paying down my current loan so the car has no negative equity but its surprising how much its lost in value since 2016...

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That's what I plan on doing in 5~7 years once the little 2.3L has been run through (150k~200k assuming it doesn't have any major issues with the FP Tune on it during that time).

A V8 is still a V8. Now that the rediculously fast 2018's are out, the Gen 2 coyotes will be cheap as dirt. You can already find a lightly used stock Coyote Gen 3 with tranny, ECU and Harness for 7k on Midway. Or if you want to spend the extra cash, buy a Gen 3 coyote mated to a 10A!

A stock Gen 3 Coyote with a 10A will match a built big turbo I4 on pump gas. It would be a dishonest comparrison to say "well on E85 my built big turbo runs low 11's...". I can super charge or Turbo Charge a V8 and easily be into the 11's or even 10's all day long on pump gas at low boost.

The Ecoboost in it's factory form is not in my opinion competitive even with cars in it's own class because of the inter cooler issue. With a FMIC it's about on par or a little faster than the WRX, Camaro V6 and 370Z cars (and way better looking in my humble opinion).

The ecoboost's real strengths after a tune (lets limit the tune here to the Ford Performance tune for arguments sake as it allows you to keep your warranty and the inter cooler to the Garrett / Honeywell drop in as it allows you to keep AGS and it's CARB certified, making it a factory like upgrade).

So given that the ecoboost goes from last place in it's class to first and becomes a really good value as a daily car and fun part time track car. It does decent on a drag, but turbo 4's are really finnicky to launch if you don't have DR's or AWD. Super fine line between bog and massive wheel spin. That's just not it's strength. Doesn't mean a skilled driver can't do well at a drag, but the GT is the better option. Same thing for highway high speed runs, especially the new 2018 GT with the 10A. Super charge that and it's just raw power!

A properly cooled and Ford P tuned EB is a really great value and is best suited to track / auto cross and daily driving. It does very well in all those categories and has the looks of the GT. Plus, when your done with it as a daily, you can do anything to it relatively easily, you don't have to buy a special kit to drop in a V8 and there's quite a few V8 flavors out there. You can do it with factory parts, which makes it MUCH cheaper than something like doing an LS2 MX-5 (although that option is insanely fast as the MX-5 with a 430 hp V8 is only 2500 lbs!).

Gen 2 Coyote with 6R80
Gen 3 Coyote with 10R80
5.2L Voodoo with 6M
Rousch Gen 2 Coyote with factory Super Charger (rebranded Ford Performance) @ 670 HP on pump gas, saw one on midway with tranny, ecu and harness for 10.5k, under 20k miles

As for me, I'm hoping to snag a Gen 3 coyote and 10R80 combo used in 5~7 years and do the swap when my S550 transitions from daily driver to weekend toy . It will be a fun project car. Plus I can re-use some of the chassis upgrades that aren't worn out such as the sway bars, forged links etc.

Or you could buy a whole new used first gen GT, especially now that the refresh 2018's are out, first gen S550's should drop in price. To me the built bottom end makes sense if you want to keep your EB as a daily but want more power or if you want a track beast, the handling is a big advantage on the track and a built bottom end EB with a big turbo can make about the same power as a stock V8 but without the weight penalty. But most of us like roll runs on the highway, that's the appeal of the GT, it just pulls so nice and seems to have endless power that goes all the way up. The highway is where the GT is king and always will be. EB's are more at home on a track where it can leverage it's handling advantage.

Case in point, here's a lightly used V8 with MT82 (23k miles, brand new basically), headers, ECU, fuel tank, wiring harness, gauge cluster, pedal assembly for $7,500: https://midwaymustang.com/collectio...rivetrain-manual-transmission-23k-miles-435hp

That's darn near a drop in kit! It costs 7k for a new stock EB engine....if you have the time, that's an awesome deal. Since the engine is stock, there should be no issues passing emissions. You could also upgrade it yourself during the install with the FP Stage 3 Power pack, 475 HP, 7500 RPM redline, high flow intake manifold and long tube headers. That's a heck of a bargain for that kind of power and will beat out most EB's handily.

TheLion said:

A properly cooled and Ford P tuned EB is a really great value and is best suited to track / auto cross and daily driving. It does very well in all those categories and has the looks of the GT. Plus, when your done with it as a daily, you can do anything to it relatively easily, you don't have to buy a special kit to drop in a V8 and there's quite a few V8 flavors out there.

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No one has mentioned the biggest advantage for the EcoBoost: efficiency. Getting 30 miles per gallon with a 300 horsepower engine is a fantastic engineering accomplishment. I could not use this car as a daily driver without that efficiency.

TorqueMan said:

No one has mentioned the biggest advantage for the EcoBoost: efficiency. Getting 30 miles per gallon with a 300 horsepower engine is a fantastic engineering accomplishment. I could not use this car as a daily driver without that efficiency.

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So what are you going to do with yer ecobopst any way other than drive it to work ?