Voodoo how long will it last?

[Forgedwheeler]

source?

There is no "source". It is opinion and conjecture.

"much sound and fury, signifying nothing".

Sponsored

 

[cozmo2312]

I know

 

[btown93]

This thread was to discuss possible longevity concerns with the VOODOO. The entire thread is nothing but opinions. I never said the OPG WOULD blow up. I just said it is a weak link that may cause longevity issues down the road.

Is the OPG a possible source of longevity issues? Yes. Did it keep me up at night or did I think about it often, no. Was I worried mine would blow up, no. Would I worry if I was putting a blower on? Absolutely but then I'd have it replaced if I had gone that way.
[MENTION=19878]btown93[/MENTION], If you have ever worked with the bean counters it's all about the numbers. Ford has a good idea of how many engines will blow due to the OPG. They factor in the R&D costs to design a new OPG as well as manufacturing costs and material costs. They then look at their tables and see x% engines will need to be replaced due to the cast OPG. If those engine replacements cost less than all the work to get a forged OPG, they stick with the same OPG. They also like the fact that one OPG serves multiple engines. Again, lower costs.

I know nothing about any of that. I do know that any auto manufacturer out there wouldn't take too kindly to cutting a $30,000 payment for parts and labor on a $56,000 car. In fact, I do know we did an engine at the dealership I work at. It was legit almost $30k in parts and labor. It didn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling (as my car was on order at the time)

By your logic, say 5500 cars per year. At $300/car for billet (retail $319 ford would pay far far less) that gets us 1,650,000$ saved. If ford actually did this they would probably pay less than half of retail. Call it 150 per car..that number turns to $825k divide that by $30k
...that means as long as there are less than 27.5 voodoo failures/ year, they can laugh all the way to the bank! :ford:


It's far too early to tell. The pace at which technology changes, it's very hard to. The days of having engines that can be traced back 50 years (pushrod 302/351 chevy 305/350) etc...and over that 50 years have become so perfected that you know with virtual certainty you will get 300,500,500k out of them. The hope is that the same technology driving the innovation is also the same technology driving the engineering and testing, and proving out in the real world. Cost cuts are the reality in the world we live in, but I just have a really hard time logically saying, yes, this is WHERE they cut. Does anybody honestly think that they would rather have the non reflective dash to reduce glare, or the shift light, or the unique sill plates, or any other part of the car unique to the GT350 as a package, that in the event of a failure of that part would only mean a replacement of said part, not a catastrophic failure?:shrug:

IMO every GT350 owner should read the writeup on SVTP by [MENTION=19066]Epiphany[/MENTION] to give some insight into the detail and efforts put forth by Ford engineers on this project.

 

[Socalrugger]

just my 2 cents but I've read through several of his posts and find them very informative. The title "Voodoo how long will it last?" seems to invite opinion based on speculation and facts. Since I'm a GT350 owner, I would welcome the good and the bad so I am armed with information when and if something happens down the road.

You just insist on ragging on Ford and the Voodoo. I can tell you I find it irritating. If you had good points it would be a different story.

You ask a shop - what do you think they are going to say? "No, the OPG is fine, so don't spend any money with us?" They have a vested interest in saying that the OPG needs replacement. I would say it's pretty naive of you to assume that shops don't want you to spend money with them.

Believe me, the accountants can't and won't over-rule the engineers when a part is likely to fail. Especially if that part can cause the failure of very expensive assemblies that will cost much, much more than the amount needed to upgrade the original part. This isn't naivete on my part; merely logical thinking.

 

[Mike02z]

I don't think it was wrong of you to post here. I also think it's good to post your opinion and this thread is about opinions. I'm mostly objecting to repeated hammering on Ford and the Voodoo and ignoring countering opinions and arguments. Yes I probably am a fan boy. Definitely to some degree I am. I feel with your line "it was wrong of me to post here" you are still trying to change the argument and win in a different way.

I mostly was hoping you would be open minded to thinking about what others are writing here... :shrug:

I'm not sure where you have been but I have said a lot of wonderful things about the GT350. I'm very open minded. I've had 5 Mustangs over my life and the GT350 was by far the best. That does not mean I like every single thing about the GT350. That would make me a fanboy.

The Hellcat has weaknesses. Every car does. Someone mentioned the 2 piece driveshaft. The rear is also a weak link if you add DR's. I've also had one of the M6's grande at 5k miles and was told it could be 2 weeks or 2 months to get the part. I'm not here to talk about weaknesses in the Hellcat. That is not part of this thread but I can give you 5 more things I dislike about the Hellcat.

I can look at every car I've owned and each has it's own set of issues. I think long term the NVH and the OPG are the two items I would worry about most if I had plans of keeping the GT350 for many years. It's not an argument, it's an opinion. You've been here long enough to be able to tell the difference.

For those who question where I get my information, it's nothing special. I have worked with Actuaries and they know their numbers. Knowing the design of a car and it's weaknesses. they can estimate how many failures there will be. Their numbers are typically very close. That is what they do for a living, evaluate numbers. Actuaries are in every industry. These are the folks who tell you how much your life insurance will cost based on your heath and statistics of people with similar conditions. Then they weight the mortality rate of people with this condition and that is how they come to a rate. Throwing numbers out to say the OPG is cheaper than replacing an engine is a "duh" moment. I'm just saying when a manufacturer plans on changing a part, the actuaries can get pretty close to the number of failures with that part. It's then up to the management to decide whether the gain outweighs the risk.

I'm not trying to be difficult here. I hope no one has an OPG fail and maybe after 100k miles, none will. I still think it is one of the two weak links in the Voodoo.

EDIT: I'm not here to "win" anything. If you want to put everything in those terms, OK you win. I have no interest in winning a pissing contest with you or anyone else. If it makes you feel better to say your opinion is better than mine, so be it :cheers:

 

[PencilGeek]

I don't have any experience in that area of automotive design. I don't know much about the manufacturing process, the loads on the parts, the failure modes, etc. The reason I tend to think it's ok is because I believe that Ford's engineers know what they are doing, Ford has the appropriate durability tests in place and so on.

This is the exact same logic people use to explain why BMW chose rod bearing clearance only 65% of the 80+ year industry standard design best practice and methods, then mate it with thicker than standard 10W60 oil. They went against their own bearing manufacturers design white papers on the subject. The results of hundreds of disassembled engines show excessively high rod bearing wear, about 100 known engine failures due to rod bearing failure -- many with less than 20000 miles on them, and now a class action lawsuit against BMW. Last week the judge denied BMW's motion to dismiss and said BMW should have known better. Yet for some inexplicable reason, there's a whole cadre of people who believe BMW knew what they were doing and it must have been the right decision...because...they're BMW.

It seems like you on the other hand, have just read something on the internet and are repeating it over and over. You have no knowledge or evidence that there is a problem, but you are 100% sure that it's a BAD design.

Explain to me why I should trust your opinion over that of Ford's engineers?

This also mirrors the BMW rod bearing discussion.

 

[PJR202]

I seem to recall reading that either the VooDoo or Coyote (maybe both?) was run in a lab at redline, nonstop, for the equivalent of 100k miles.

 

[Epiphany]

IMO every GT350 owner should read the writeup on SVTP by @Epiphany to give some insight into the detail and efforts put forth by Ford engineers on this project.

I wish I could go back in time and discuss the OPG with the engineers that were gathered there. If I get the opportunity to attend the reveal for the upcoming GT500/whatever I'll be sure to ask in detail.

I do have faith in the engineers that made this car happen. What I don't have faith in are those that make the financial decisions such as those that led to the Base/Tech Pack cooler debacle. I only know that this engine met or exceeded the minimum durability standards in order to get the green light and that those internal standards (as well as those mandated by the EPA, etc) are pretty stringent.

 

[xXANCHORMONXx]

Fixed for you

Pretty irrelevant response though... just because we are buying a sports car doesn't mean we shouldn't care about longevity... unless $70K is disposable to you, pretty foolish statement IMO

Triggereddddddddd


That's part of the deal when you buy a high performance car. My first motor blew at a few thousand miles and got replaced. I have an extended 8 year warranty on the car for that reason alone.

I don't expect it to last 200k, if it does great. If it doesn't so be it, I'm just busy driving it like it was meant to.


This thread topic is beyond moronic, it's all based on opinion. Instead of worrying about how long it will last just drive the car.

If someone on here said that this motor will blow apart at 50k do you sell it at 49k?

 

[Forgedwheeler]

I seem to recall reading that either the VooDoo or Coyote (maybe both?) was run in a lab at redline, nonstop, for the equivalent of 100k miles.

Today, it costs nearly $1 billion to design and certify an automotive engine from scratch. Even a variant like the Voodoo 5.2 will cost nearly $100 million in engineering, development, testing, durability proof, and emission certification.
Part of the durability testing is multiple test engines at maximum RPM and maximum load for up to 1000 hours each. Then complete disassembly and inspection for any failures or incipient failures. The engineering team gets measured and rewarded for the cost/benefit achievement.
It would be ludicrous to believe that Ford would deliberately ignore an incipient OPG failure. To suggest that they would compromise engine durability trying to save $200 is laughable.
There is a budget. There are performance standards to be met. And there sure as hell are durability standards. Ford is very tough on achieving goals.
Most of the opinions expressed here about the powdered metal gears in these pumps underscores the collective, complete ignorance about modern manufacturing methods and technology. They "conclude" because Ford makes a "billet" pump for another purpose, there is an automatic assumption that they "cheaped out" by using powdered metal in the Voodoo pump. Balderdash! I KNOW why they use the powdered metal gears.
It is a better pump for this purpose than a billet pump. Period. Precision tolerances, high volume and high pressure. I know I won't convince the ignorant, so I won't try.
But there is not a single documented case of OPG failure in a Voodoo engine. Not one. Could it happen? Sure. But it is NOT a "known weakness". There's not even any known failures. This is how rumors lead to judgements.
I remember the Audi 5000 debacle. "Unintended acceleration" was the media hype. After extensive testing by every known testing body on the planet, the verdict was "operator error". It cost Audi almost $2 billion and they did nothing wrong. This OPG nonsense is just another example of ignorance influencing opinion.

 

[PencilGeek]

The only thing that would concern me reliability wise of the Voodoo is the pistons, rings and/or bore.

It's a well known fact that forged pistons with their looser clearances simply don't have the same longevity as hyper pistons which are able to be installed tighter and have less expansion. 4032 pistons are definitely better than 2618 material, but still their PTV is a helluva lot looser than hyper pistons.

Not that it won't last throughout the warranty period, but I don't expect 400k miles like the ol' mod motors you see in taxi cabs.

Can you give some numbers on piston-to-wall clearance for each? I'd like to put it into perspective of some other engines I know to see how it compares.

 

[PJR202]

People in life and particularly on forums tend to regurgitate what others say. The one in particular that gets me is everyone saying the MT82 is chinese junk. It literally has begun to irritate me when I see the comment because as you said, hundreds of millions of dollars of R&D by people that are the best of the best in their industry has gone into that piece of junk, and some internet whizkid racer can dismiss it with a few strokes on the keyboard, and suddenly everyone jumps on board. Last I checked, the MT82's aren't blowing up.

Very few people on this forum know all that much about cars and engines. They might think they do, but they don't. I don't know a ton but probably more than most people I encounter in life, but I definitely don't consider myself to be in that small percentage here that is very knowledgeable. And the best part is, those people have given up trying to shut the rabble rousers up with actual facts. It's not worth their time.

 

[PencilGeek]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, as much as I LOVE this engine, it would have been so dam cool for them to have made a 4.7L FPC V8, same size as the original GT350R, but make the whole internal assembly lighter and rev it out to 9000rpms.

It's only money. I'm sure I could get the crank, rods, and pistons made for it. I'd have to look into the valve springs to 9000 RPMs though.

 

[Epiphany]

Triggereddddddddd

If someone on here said that this motor will blow apart at 50k do you sell it at 49k?

I'd dump it at 48k, if for anything to minimize finger pointing such that the new owner had the opportunity to get comfortable with the car, push it, and then blow it up.

 

[cking]

Since I started this thread I'll explain my thoughts. I really was not looking for it will blow up. More of a do such high performance engines have degrade cycle. So at 50K will I have lost 20% RWHP and that is considered normal?

Sponsored