S550 vs C6 Corvette

[Cdnspeed]

I drove My friends C6 GS Couple months ago, I did not like it.

The C6 GS:
felt very Solid
Great torque down low, boring up top
Slow steering rack made it feel like i was driving a Cobalt.
Ratios are ridiculously long.

All that being said it could be an absolute weapon on a track with some mods, but so can the mustang... so it comes down to what experience you enjoy more. Kick you in the back torque or all the RPM.

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[Hack]

I drove My friends C6 GS Couple months ago, I did not like it.

The C6 GS:
felt very Solid
Great torque down low, boring up top
Slow steering rack made it feel like i was driving a Cobalt.
Ratios are ridiculously long.

All that being said it could be an absolute weapon on a track with some mods, but so can the mustang... so it comes down to what experience you enjoy more. Kick you in the back torque or all the RPM.

The C5 steering rack is like that too. Seems like the car is very slow to respond.

 

[Cdnspeed]

The C5 steering rack is like that too. Seems like the car is very slow to respond.

Yeah its wierd its slow to respond But it's very tight

 

[Hack]

Yeah its wierd its slow to respond But it's very tight

It's really odd how quickly my Fiesta changes direction in comparison. When I swap between driving one versus the other I have to really pay attention to keeping the Fiesta steering straight. Definitely gives a sportier feeling having a quicker steering ratio.

 

[fatbillybob]

I just finished racing my C5Z06 about 1 decade of racing that platform. I just started racing a 2019 GT.
The C6 is really C5 2.0. There is no revolution in the design like the C7 to C8 but instead evolution. You need to compare apples to apples. There is the C6 LS2, C6 LS3, C6 GS (an LS3 motor with factory dry sump), C6Z06, and C6Zr1. Each is very different. Each has advantages and disadvantages. IMO the lowly C5Z06 is superior to the S550 platform from a track perspective. The C6 is a better platform than the C5. The S550 PP1 is lacking because of weight, CG, lack of adjustable suspension, poor brakes and that is only what I have found so far. But you can still make a GT fast. You just have to throw a bunch of money at it. The real problem with a C6 is that is is old. You can't just go to a dealer and buy a steering rack anymore. Like the C5 soon you will not be able to buy super reliable GM LS3 crate motors. The advantage to the S550 is that you can still buy them new. A new track/racecar is super reliable in the closer to stock classes. Once you modify for performance you loose reliability because our mods are never engineered as a package. There is nothing more reliable or cheap than going to Ford and buying a crate coyote motor. a proper motor rebuild can easily break the 15k barrier. I have had 4 motors in my C5Z in 10 years of racing it. GM stopped making the LS1/6 blocks and parts so hard to get my friend drove from Norcal to socal to pick up an extra steering rack from me so he could race on the weekend! Nothing is cheap about tracking a car. Everything will break unpredictably as you push the car hard. A reliable day is a fun day. The newer the car the more reliable. If I was running a C6 it would be the lowest mile you can get C6GS. That is the most bullit-proof C6 platform.

 

[Hack]

I just finished racing my C5Z06 about 1 decade of racing that platform. I just started racing a 2019 GT.
The C6 is really C5 2.0. There is no revolution in the design like the C7 to C8 but instead evolution. You need to compare apples to apples. There is the C6 LS2, C6 LS3, C6 GS (an LS3 motor with factory dry sump), C6Z06, and C6Zr1. Each is very different. Each has advantages and disadvantages. IMO the lowly C5Z06 is superior to the S550 platform from a track perspective. The C6 is a better platform than the C5. The S550 PP1 is lacking because of weight, CG, lack of adjustable suspension, poor brakes and that is only what I have found so far. But you can still make a GT fast. You just have to throw a bunch of money at it. The real problem with a C6 is that is is old. You can't just go to a dealer and buy a steering rack anymore. Like the C5 soon you will not be able to buy super reliable GM LS3 crate motors. The advantage to the S550 is that you can still buy them new. A new track/racecar is super reliable in the closer to stock classes. Once you modify for performance you loose reliability because our mods are never engineered as a package. There is nothing more reliable or cheap than going to Ford and buying a crate coyote motor. a proper motor rebuild can easily break the 15k barrier. I have had 4 motors in my C5Z in 10 years of racing it. GM stopped making the LS1/6 blocks and parts so hard to get my friend drove from Norcal to socal to pick up an extra steering rack from me so he could race on the weekend! Nothing is cheap about tracking a car. Everything will break unpredictably as you push the car hard. A reliable day is a fun day. The newer the car the more reliable. If I was running a C6 it would be the lowest mile you can get C6GS. That is the most bullit-proof C6 platform.

Good insights.

What racing series are you in?

 

[EFI]

Good insight, but I do have a couple things with what you posted here.

What makes you say that the S550 GTPP has "poor brakes" especially in comparison to the base model C6 or any C5?

Also, while the LS3 crate motor may be super reliable on the street and strip, without a dry sump on a road course they are a ticking time bomb.

I just finished racing my C5Z06 about 1 decade of racing that platform. I just started racing a 2019 GT.
The C6 is really C5 2.0. There is no revolution in the design like the C7 to C8 but instead evolution. You need to compare apples to apples. There is the C6 LS2, C6 LS3, C6 GS (an LS3 motor with factory dry sump), C6Z06, and C6Zr1. Each is very different. Each has advantages and disadvantages. IMO the lowly C5Z06 is superior to the S550 platform from a track perspective. The C6 is a better platform than the C5. The S550 PP1 is lacking because of weight, CG, lack of adjustable suspension, poor brakes and that is only what I have found so far. But you can still make a GT fast. You just have to throw a bunch of money at it. The real problem with a C6 is that is is old. You can't just go to a dealer and buy a steering rack anymore. Like the C5 soon you will not be able to buy super reliable GM LS3 crate motors. The advantage to the S550 is that you can still buy them new. A new track/racecar is super reliable in the closer to stock classes. Once you modify for performance you loose reliability because our mods are never engineered as a package. There is nothing more reliable or cheap than going to Ford and buying a crate coyote motor. a proper motor rebuild can easily break the 15k barrier. I have had 4 motors in my C5Z in 10 years of racing it. GM stopped making the LS1/6 blocks and parts so hard to get my friend drove from Norcal to socal to pick up an extra steering rack from me so he could race on the weekend! Nothing is cheap about tracking a car. Everything will break unpredictably as you push the car hard. A reliable day is a fun day. The newer the car the more reliable. If I was running a C6 it would be the lowest mile you can get C6GS. That is the most bullit-proof C6 platform.

 

[sonicc]

Regarding the steering feel in C6, I did notice that as well. It almost felt like steering in a 2005 Blazer I rented once. Well maybe not as bad, but it had that looseness to it.

I just finished racing my C5Z06 about 1 decade of racing that platform. I just started racing a 2019 GT.
The C6 is really C5 2.0. There is no revolution in the design like the C7 to C8 but instead evolution. You need to compare apples to apples. There is the C6 LS2, C6 LS3, C6 GS (an LS3 motor with factory dry sump), C6Z06, and C6Zr1. Each is very different. Each has advantages and disadvantages. IMO the lowly C5Z06 is superior to the S550 platform from a track perspective. The C6 is a better platform than the C5. The S550 PP1 is lacking because of weight, CG, lack of adjustable suspension, poor brakes and that is only what I have found so far. But you can still make a GT fast. You just have to throw a bunch of money at it. The real problem with a C6 is that is is old. You can't just go to a dealer and buy a steering rack anymore. Like the C5 soon you will not be able to buy super reliable GM LS3 crate motors. The advantage to the S550 is that you can still buy them new. A new track/racecar is super reliable in the closer to stock classes. Once you modify for performance you loose reliability because our mods are never engineered as a package. There is nothing more reliable or cheap than going to Ford and buying a crate coyote motor. a proper motor rebuild can easily break the 15k barrier. I have had 4 motors in my C5Z in 10 years of racing it. GM stopped making the LS1/6 blocks and parts so hard to get my friend drove from Norcal to socal to pick up an extra steering rack from me so he could race on the weekend! Nothing is cheap about tracking a car. Everything will break unpredictably as you push the car hard. A reliable day is a fun day. The newer the car the more reliable. If I was running a C6 it would be the lowest mile you can get C6GS. That is the most bullit-proof C6 platform.

Those are some good points, I haven't really thought about replacement parts. I always assumed GM/LS parts are plentiful since they're shared across many models.

 

[fatbillybob]

What makes you say that the S550 GTPP has "poor brakes" especially in comparison to the base model C6 or any C5?

Also, while the LS3 crate motor may be super reliable on the street and strip, without a dry sump on a road course they are a ticking time bomb.

You are correct! Thats why I said each version has plus minus and why my choice is the C6GS.

Brakes in the s550 are poor because the design and weight. Different makers can design 4 or 6 pistons to manage the heat generated. I bet someone like AP racing could come up with a better design and open up the 18" wheel fitment so we could nix the spacers. Spacers are not great in racing. They open up another failure point. The vette has holes for traditional brake ducts so it is 1/2way setup to cool the brakes if the design can't manage the heat. I have the PP1 brembos and I have still not quite got a handle on the heat capacity even with XP20 race pads and 2 piece rotors. I will solve it. I just have to figure it out. That's what we do in racing "develop the chassis." The vette chassis is old. There are a bunch of guys tripping over themselves to sell you their big brake kits so you got many affordable options.

I really think the biggest glaring thing of C6 vs. S550 is the lack of adjustable suspension in the S550. You can't lower, you can ride height tune and you can't corner balance the chassis without conversion to an adjustable suspension like ground control coils with divorced spring at $2k or $4+k for real coilovers like MCS penske (then you have to worry about overloading, ripping out sheet metal, the rear suspension shock mount never designed for the chassis load there) If you convert a vette off the transverse leaf to a true coilover nothing breaks.

All of these things can be solved. But if the question is which gets you on track with less drama it's the vette. But I think that old chassis had its day in the sun. I do things weird though. I bought a new S550 off my local Ford dealer then gutted it out for a racecar. Almost no one but pros do that because they have money, its their job, and how pro series work. Most every amateur buy a used car because of cost. I think that is a false economy because more stuff is likely to break that you have to spend money to fix and the newer car I buy the longer I can buy all the parts off the shelf from Ford. When stuff breaks you can't race, can't finish races, So that's a different philosophy.

 

[EFI]

haven't really thought about replacement parts. I always assumed GM/LS parts are plentiful since they're shared across many models.

They are, but not really new if that matters to you or not. And the only things really shared across many platforms is the engine itself. Everything else in the Corvette is specific to that car.

Plenty of stuff to be found used online and/or eBay, but new stuff straight from the dealer or GM Performance will be tough to come by for the C6 especially body parts and non engine based items. Unlike the Mustang that literally has a 100+ page catalog of brand new "aftermarket" parts directly from Ford Performance and many thousands new from dealers.

 

[EFI]

Brakes in the s550 are poor because the design and weight. Different makers can design 4 or 6 pistons to manage the heat generated. I bet someone like AP racing could come up with a better design and open up the 18" wheel fitment so we could nix the spacers. Spacers are not great in racing. They open up another failure point. The vette has holes for traditional brake ducts so it is 1/2way setup to cool the brakes if the design can't manage the heat. I have the PP1 brembos and I have still not quite got a handle on the heat capacity even with XP20 race pads and 2 piece rotors. I will solve it. I just have to figure it out. That's what we do in racing "develop the chassis." The vette chassis is old. There are a bunch of guys tripping over themselves to sell you their big brake kits so you got many affordable options.

Not to start an argument as you are of course free to have your own opinion on the matter, but you're quite literally the first person I've heard that calls the 15" Brembo brakes poor. Yes they are heavy, but that's what you get from a massive rotor. I can't imagine that the C6Z brakes are that much lighter and better at stopping (not taking into consideration the 600lb weight difference in the two cars).

Maybe many of us are not quite on your level and have had excellent luck with the OEM brake setup (minus pads and fluid).

 

[fatbillybob]

Those are some good points, I haven't really thought about replacement parts. I always assumed GM/LS parts are plentiful since they're shared across many models.

Parts are "plentiful" but not like when GM supported the parts chain. They stop doing that after a certain number of years after the last car in a line is manufactured. So racing the C5 platform we 1st lost the crate motors of which I have replaced 4 in 10 years most as my car aged. It was flawless like the 1st 5 years of racing then you could never guess what is going to break next. I was racing at CoTA and I broke an ear off the steering rack. Can you imagine in the most American place in America not being able to find a steering rack within 300miles even at a junkyard? Well I bought a welder and mig welded the ear on jackstands and went racing. So in our cadre of guys who raced C5's we horded parts and our trailers were like C5 junkyards. When you broke something you did not have you cruzed the paddock like a vulture hoping to find that rear tierod arm because you weren't going to find one at the autoparts store but they could get you one in a week or more. So parts are available just not instantly like when new. Back in the day when I could get parts at the dealer I travel across country to race at Daytona. My car was dead for a simple $50 part that I drove 2 miles to the chevy dealer to get. Voila I was back to racing. You can do that with an S550. You can't do that with a C6.

 

[bnightstar]

You can do that with an S550. You can't do that with a C6.

In the states sure. Come try to race S550 in Europe. I wait 2 weeks for brake pads.

 

[fatbillybob]

Maybe many of us are not quite on your level and have had excellent luck with the OEM brake setup (minus pads and fluid).

In my case due to our rule set we were forced to race C5 vettes on OEM brake system with open pads and fluid for many years before we were allowed aftermarket caliper systems. That forced us to figure out how to make the oem brakes survive. It is all about where you can increase heat capacity. Street, HPDE, time trialing, sprint racing and endurance racing all have very different requirements and loads on the car.

So it's not that I'm on a super high level but I and doing what fewer people are doing with the car. All of us who track are like 5% of owners. Racers are probably 10% of that 5%. If you do a trackday a few times per year and have experience that goes with that you probably are just fine. If you time trial you can back off and then go for a fast lap. If endurance racing I don't think the S550 could last a couple hours before failure. Every platform has it's challenges because they were designed to be streetcars and never engineered to be racecars.

Oh one other thing about vettes Vs mustangs. You can't get new body parts for vettes but there are used body parts at nearly every junk yard and cheap. Last vette fender I bout was 100 bucks! Other great thing about plastic is often you get hit lightly and it pops back out and only the paint cracks. Mustang is metal you get dents. Yeah we are not supposed to hit each other but it happens to someone every race weekend.

 

[EFI]

If endurance racing I don't think the S550 could last a couple hours before failure. Every platform has it's challenges because they were designed to be streetcars and never engineered to be racecars.

Oh of course, endurance racing never ever came into my mind when regarding this conversation. Endurance racing is a whole 'nother animal and merits its own discussion. Nothing in any standard mass produced car is anywhere near capable of doing an endurance event.

This whole conversation was based on track days, HPDE events or time trials with a max of 20-25 minutes on track.

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