Ford GT350 vs BMW M2

[Trackaholic]

I've repeated myself because you continue to come up with different angles to back up your claims that BMW has lost its way. I cant find that any of your positions are in line with reality....

So once again (to repeat myself) lets review your claims and why they are not valid:

You've claimed the M235i is soft...The claim is not backed up by numbers and virtually any professional driver and or reviewer that has reviewed the cars...

You've claimed the M235i is softer than your 135i...The claim is not backed up because the M235i numbers compete with the M1 and not the 135.

You've claimed BMW has lost their way...The claim is not backed up because its still beating Mercedes and Cadillac that have spent boat loads trying to beat M series. They are still the undisputed king at this time and for cars in the same category (luxury performance).

You've claimed the M2 is nothing but bolt ons and doesnt required an M series team...The M2 has engine tuning and suspension tuning and track time.


You've complained about weight of the M2...Almost all global cars are ballooning in weight because of the different regions compliance and safety measures. BMW could have lowered the weight with significant usage of Carbon fiber. If they had I bet you would be blasting BMW for a 65-70k M2 and calling them "crazy" for their price point.

You've compared BMW and Fords performance...You are comparing a domestic company and a luxury German manufacturer. The companies spend money in completely different areas. You arent comparing apples to apples. If you want a stripper performance car and thats what you are after, you should buy it.


In the end I havent really seen any solid position from you thats accurate about BMW or in line with reality...If you are comparing Ford and BMW then you are never going to find value in BMW because you want different things than BMW produces....The reality is that you are not in the market for a BMW and Im not sure, outside of buying one, you ever were. I think you like the idea of BMW as an performance enthusiast but dont actually want a German luxury performance car. You should skip the M2 test drive and buy a Ford because you will be happier. Fords performance division is on fire and they are great cars for the segment.

Take it easy..Im out.

BMW's have always been expensive, but in the past they made visceral driver's cars with engines that sounded good, had excellent throttle response, couple with power and torque that suited the chassis.

The newer turbo BMW's make more power and torque than the older naturally aspirated ones, are faster around the track, but the power now overwhelms the chassis. The cars aren't as sorted as they used to be. The engines sounds pretty bad. The steering feel is not as good as in the past.

If you didn't want any of that, and instead wanted the refined interior, dealer/ownership experience, then BMW would still be an excellent choice. However, for those who wanted the engagement that they used to provide, BMW has definitely lost their way. Heck, I don't think the 3-series even made the C&D top 10 this year (the M235 did though, which means that it is probably the best choice for those still wanting the "old" BMW feeling).

It is nice that Ford and GM are both making cars (GT350 and new Camaro), that combine the power and handling in a very engaging overall combination, with excellent chassis tuning, passable interiors and materials, and great overall value.

Of the current crop of BMW's, the M235 and M2 are probably the most interesting, but I've placed my order with the GT350. If an updated version of the E90 M3 were still around, the decision may have been much more difficult.

-T

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[Shakooza]

BMW's have always been expensive, but in the past they made visceral driver's cars with engines that sounded good, had excellent throttle response, couple with power and torque that suited the chassis.

The newer turbo BMW's make more power and torque than the older naturally aspirated ones, are faster around the track, but the power now overwhelms the chassis. The cars aren't as sorted as they used to be. The engines sounds pretty bad. The steering feel is not as good as in the past.

If you didn't want any of that, and instead wanted the refined interior, dealer/ownership experience, then BMW would still be an excellent choice. However, for those who wanted the engagement that they used to provide, BMW has definitely lost their way. Heck, I don't think the 3-series even made the C&D top 10 this year (the M235 did though, which means that it is probably the best choice for those still wanting the "old" BMW feeling).

It is nice that Ford and GM are both making cars (GT350 and new Camaro), that combine the power and handling in a very engaging overall combination, with excellent chassis tuning, passable interiors and materials, and great overall value.

Of the current crop of BMW's, the M235 and M2 are probably the most interesting, but I've placed my order with the GT350. If an updated version of the E90 M3 were still around, the decision may have been much more difficult.

-T

You are one of the most logical and best posters on this forum. I agree with some of this ^^^ and disagree with some of it. I still do not agree with BMW losing their way. BMW is always pushing tech and in many instances they are pushing everyone around them. Almost all of the competitors in their field are experiencing the same issues that BMW is. Many people want to believe that Ford is a competitor but they are not....


If we simply look at transmissions and look at BMWs current line of transmissions DKG and Steptronic we can use them for a little historical reference. If you look at the BMWs recent history of semi automatic transmissions to their current line up it paints a good picture. BMWs automatic transmissions werent great and there were many complaints. Now the transmissions are amazing and even the Steptronic has lightening fast shifts and is a mature product. At anytime during this growth process people have complained about transmissions and claimed that BMW lost its way. Did BMW lose its way with their automatic transmission? Anyone that drives a Steptronic or DKG knows that BMW did not lose their way and their transmissions are some of the best and are only topped by supercar manufacturers.

Where are Ford or Chevys high tier PDK style of transmission? The last I read they are still being developed. If you watch any review on the Corvette Chevys latest and greatest is just OK....No one claims Ford or Chevy has lost their way because they are half a decade behind. When they do roll out the new tech they have a hundred lessons learned to put out a well "baked" product. There is no advanced transmission option in the GT350. Outside of the FPC its pretty standard tech....The only other stand out I can find with the GT350 is the carbon fiber wheels and lets be honest that isnt new tech its just tech that is now being mass produced and being pushed down to an affordable series of car...Im not taking ANYTHING away from the GT350 but lets call it what it is which is the pinnacle of dying breed....In a half a decade you probably wont find a V8 in the Mustang. In half a decade most enthusiast Mustangs will probably come with a twin turbo V6. In half a decade most Mustangs will probably be sold with automatic transmissions...Most Mustangs will probably have some form of direct injections in half a decade...Sounds like Fords product that will debut in half a decade will probably become very much like the current BMW line up....I wonder how "soft" they will be or if Ford will get to skirt the problem from lessons learned from companies like BMW....


I see people complain about BMW going soft or that BMWs break. The reality is, is that BMW is willing to push the envelope. There is a learning curve when pushing the envelope. Its easy to think a company has lost its way when as they go through this learning process and associated pain. In half a decade electric steering will be locked down and we will have feel back. Just because almost all manufacturers that pushed the edge are having issues with feel today it doesnt mean BMW has lost their way. BMW is not the only one having issues with feel and you dont have to look any farther than Audi. BMWs show that the performance numbers are stronger than they have ever been so in reality there is no softness....

If you look at the list of major tech advances BMW has been right in the mix with all of them... PDKS, Turbo charging, Direct injection, chassis tech, usage of Carbon fiber. All of these tech advances and implementations have been right in the heart of the period that people have claimed BMW is going soft. BMW is not going soft and their commitment to tech to improve performance provides proof. There really is no way to get around the disparity of the time and money BMW has spent on performance while maintaining the claim BMWs have gone soft. Thats a stop gap in which reality does not align with the claims. According to BMWs current track times "soft" is really smooth and smooth really does equal fast...

If you look at the latest tech on the 7 series or the I8 its apparent just how far most of the auto manufacturers are behind BMW...In half a decade BMW will be launching a hybrid system while Ford will be putting V6 twin turbos on the road. Again Im NOT knocking Ford. You pay for that research when you buy a BMW. You pay higher upfront cost, maintenance cost, etc...BMW is not for everyone. I DO find value in Fords product and would love a GT350. A GT350 is what it is and a BMW is what it is, however...

In the end Im not even a BMW fan....I just understand research/development and the associated pains.

 

[Trackaholic]

I'm BMW is definitely ticking all the right boxes: fast transmissions, powerful engines, technology, material quality, etc. However, IMO that doesn't mean they are on the right track. The aspects that made them famous were the ones that made them the Ultimate Driving Machine. Things like responsive engines, engaging manual transmissions, a chassis that could handle the power, great steering feel.

They've made great strides in other areas, but the fact that they've lost the connection to the driver (on most of their cars) to me is more than an issue with R&D lag. It is a change in priorities, and that is why many feel they've lost their way.

Of course for many others drivers, BMWs new priorities may actually be better aligned and that is why some may feel that their current products are still great. I can understand both points of view, but as a fan of the "old" BMW, I will admit that their current lineup doesn't interest me much anymore.

-T

 

[Shakooza]

I'm BMW is definitely ticking all the right boxes: fast transmissions, powerful engines, technology, material quality, etc. However, IMO that doesn't mean they are on the right track. The aspects that made them famous were the ones that made them the Ultimate Driving Machine. Things like responsive engines, engaging manual transmissions, a chassis that could handle the power, great steering feel.

They've made great strides in other areas, but the fact that they've lost the connection to the driver (on most of their cars) to me is more than an issue with R&D lag. It is a change in priorities, and that is why many feel they've lost their way.

Of course for many others drivers, BMWs new priorities may actually be better aligned and that is why some may feel that their current products are still great. I can understand both points of view, but as a fan of the "old" BMW, I will admit that their current lineup doesn't interest me much anymore.

-T

In my personal opinion its hard to have a discussion about the "feel" of cars these days. Performance cars are making thousands of decisions a second and apply power/braking to the wheels and adjust the suspension. At the flick of a switch you can completely change the attitude of your car. The "feel" of a car is being dictated to us by electronics. That means you arent feeling the car in the first place. You are simply have tactile feedback of what the car wants you to experience. Its going to get much worse before it gets better....

I will be the first to admit that some of these advancements need improvement to supply "feel" to the driver. We are at the dawn of some of this technology and its rapidly improving. I do know that the cars that BMW is producing that are "not focused", "lack feel", etc are smashing the laptimes of the old driver focused BMW. That tells me the tech is working and we just need the interface to catch up....and they are working on it.


Things change and unless you want manual steering, roll down windows, sub 2k weight, etc then it may be time to consider that you are as guilty as BMW is about going soft...

 

[nickko11]

All great points...did you have a 6MT or auto? I traded a 135i 6MT for my S550 and STILL regret it. Some of my buddies thought it was FWD...they were in shock when I told them it was 300 h/p & 300 lbs of trq - REAR-WHEEL DRIVE!

May i ask, why do you regret it? is it because you traded it for a s550 and discovered the s550 is not as good?
oops dont worry about replying to this, i just saw a post where you answered this. Good to hear.

 

[Hack]

I've repeated myself because you continue to come up with different angles to back up your claims that BMW has lost its way. I cant find that any of your positions are in line with reality....

I've never owned or even driven a BMW, but I have heard and read lots of people who think BMW is not the leader they once were. Just for your information. Read some comparos with BMW in them. Or read BMW reviews. You'll find it there if you are willing to see it.

 

[ihc95]

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1213927

I think the M2 looks great at the Detroit show. I have to say, this car looks like quite an appealing package. For $52k, it comes pretty much fully loaded. Nav, leather, 19s, power everything all standard. Interestingly, to get a GT350 equipped to the same level as the base M2, you need the Tech package so the GT350 becomes a $58k car, so $6k more than an M2. What's even more interesting is that the M2 will almost certainly put down better performance numbers than the 350. BMW is claiming a 4.1 0-60 with DCT but they're always a couple tenths conservative.


Check out the list of standard features. Very impressive! http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1214045

 

[ForTehNguyen]

M2 is suppose to be the more pure car like E46, something the new M3/M4 lost. Good engineers cars, but less driver cars.

 

[fusionchicken]

really excited to see how the m2's smaller footprint and shorter wheelbase translates to driving dynamics

power isn't really that much of an issue since i'm sure JB4 will come right out with a chip that brings the HP to the neighborhood of the F80 twins'. I have an E85 station next to me as well so that should be fun

 

[w3rkn]

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1213927

I think the M2 looks great at the Detroit show. I have to say, this car looks like quite an appealing package. For $52k, it comes pretty much fully loaded. Nav, leather, 19s, power everything all standard. Interestingly, to get a GT350 equipped to the same level as the base M2, you need the Tech package so the GT350 becomes a $58k car, so $6k more than an M2. What's even more interesting is that the M2 will almost certainly put down better performance numbers than the 350. BMW is claiming a 4.1 0-60 with DCT but they're always a couple tenths conservative.


Check out the list of standard features. Very impressive! http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1214045

But... the 350 & the M2 are not drag cars.. nor are they luxury focused. They are the best track car.. each company can produce.


You have some wild criteria... then fail to notice the folly of your comparo above. lulz.





Ford has designed the GT350 for racing, subsequently the track.... and proving itself on the circuit before it hit the streets. What has BMW Motorsports done with the N55 in racing the last 5 years?

You seriously are not trying to compare Fords 5.2 FPC to BMW's N55 w/overboost and some ancillary upgrades, over what is already in the Z35is, 135is, M235i..? The M2 is not about being lightweight and agile, it is about shooting //M sauce all over yuppie's faces.

Face it, the M2 is a parts-bin car. (And cost more than a GT350)



There is no M240i is there..?

Because BMW stretched themselves and went full-on with M2 ( M2 = M235i parts bin car, w/ wider hips). The M2 = fail because it doesn't showcase BMW's best racing tech... but it oldest and least efficient. They should be ashamed of themselves. Trying to mask/market it's faults behind a dct.

Sadly, the M2 will be the best BMW to own... and how sad is that for such a great company..?



I own the closest thing you can get to that engine & let me tell you, there is some massive throttle & response issues that need to be dealt with on the n55 platform.

There has to be extensive engineering in the whole intake/exhaust and turbos, plus a longer powerband for the N55 to even remotely be a street driven track car. From the sounds of it, most the //m-work was software & tuning and lipservice, not reworked mechanics. In the end, the M2 will end up being another highway bomber/sweeper...

The N55 is not a race engine. Period.



Ford vs BMW ..?

Alan Mulally pulled all of Ford's aftermarket programs together under one roof, and made it also a racing division. Ford Performance Racing. The GT350, & Focus RS are meant to be on the track, & supported by Ford Motor Company. Race what you sell.


Ford used it pedigree and went back and imagined the S550 Mustang platform.. and built a racing program. They dug deeper than BMW did on it's Heritage and DNA. So, Ford chose to put engineering into their mustang, while BMW chose to put //Marketing into their M2. The GT350 and the M2 are 50lbs difference. (wtf ?)

The GT350 is simply more premium than the M2. Even the M4 comes off looking snobbing and incompetent next to it. (///M what?)




The big kick in the M2's nuts & the reason I won't be getting a M2... ..the Focus RS weighs less than both the M2 and GT350. And is said to outperform the M2.

EcoBoost is better tech than TwinPower.

How is BMW's M2 going to compete against Ford's 2.7 v6 EB coming in a lightweight (ala GT350), turbo platform..? What then bmw?

More lipservice...?

 

[ihc95]

The GT350 and the M2 are 50lbs difference. (wtf ?)

Lol what are you smoking? An M2 is 3450lbs and a GT350 is 3800lbs. That's not a 50lb difference.

 

[paul123]

BMW 2-series has the distinction of being the only BMW that scored IIHS TSP

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/bmw/2-series-2-door-coupe

That may or may not apply to M2

3-series, not so much:

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/bmw/3-series-4-door-sedan

 

[Poppacapp]

BMW is becoming the Hyundai of the performance world.

 

[w3rkn]

Lol what are you smoking? An M2 is 3450lbs and a GT350 is 3800lbs. That's not a 50lb difference.

LOL...

Look at the weigh difference between a M235i and a 3,530lbs EB Mustang. Then look at the weight difference between a M2 and a GT350. The point is, the M2 didn't loose nearly any weight. Did you not notice that the M2 weighs as much as the much larger M3..?

And that the M2 weighs almost as much as a EB Mustang. That there is no premium materials for BMW's $53k top-of-the-line track car. It is parts-bin car, based on marketing.




You do understand, there is NO comparison between the M2 and the GT350 on the track, right? That the GT350 ownz the M4... so the M2 will be on the sidelines pretending to look mean with flared arches...

$53,000 spent on a GT350 is a much better investment, than on a supped up M235i. Even the BMW fans know this...



BMW cars are not impressive, even though the company touts all this tech. There are many fans leaving BMW for Ford, because BMW has become the General Motors of the auto world, making a cars for everyone... 1-series, 2-series- 3 series, 4-series, 5-series, 6-series, i3, i7... X3, X4, etc...

It is hilarious... BMW is now mainstream and lost it's focus on driving & racing. The bean counters have sterilized the company.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Couldn't agree more. BMW has lost it's way!

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