Can a case be made for leaving it bone stock?

[young at heart]

Agreed.



I think one thing that no one has really mentioned (if someone did, and I missed it -that's on me) is that most (not all ) owners who go forced induction and start making high power levels in the Mustang (or most makes / models for that matter) don't tend to daily drive that car. They might drive it most every day, but it's not the car they get in most every day and drive to work, to the store, road trips etc. Depending on locale, most highly modified (for power) car owners don't drive it when it's raining or there is snow on the ground.

In fact, I have personally known more than a few people who have modified their vehicles to the point they bought another car / truck to drive everyday. In reality, that's what you mention as an option, just coming at it from the other direction.

Now the line about 'being smarter than Ford Engineers'.......automobiles are simply using more technology than they have in the past. Those same technological advances that require research and modifying certain things (like programming different modules with FORSCAN to add a digital instrument cluster for example) is just the price you pay....because that same technology allows anyone to go buy a new car that makes over 400 HP, has a 5yr /60K power train warranty and gets better gas mileage than many non-performance cars did 20 years ago.

"Tuning" or "reflashing" a Mustang is NO different than tuning a carburetor for better fueling (more performance) and recurving a distributor (For more / less timing and better efficiency / more power) was before computers and EFI appeared in mass-produced vehicles.

I've done both. Reflashing an ECU is a helluva of a lot easier than changing metering rods / jets / messing with primaries and secondary opening rates, getting distributors recurved (or changing vacuum advance units for different advance rates with timing) then making 1/4 runs or WOT runs and reading spark plugs.

In fact - I'd argue that without the "tinkerers" who continuously tried to improve the performance of the internal combustion engine - we likely wouldn't have the vehicles that we have now.



This not meant to offend you, or anyone for that matter, but if you aren't comfortable with modifying / troubleshooting your car OR you don't already have a shop / mechanic that you trust can do the same, odds are correct about modifying your Mustang.

You mention buying a second Mustang "Like maybe a Shelby"..........do you think a Shelby (that hasn't been highly modified correctly) is somehow less dependable than your current Mustang? Do you not think you'll run into the same things that are deterring you from modifying your current car? Unless you are talking about an older - much older - Mustang / Shelby. If that's the case, older vehicles (regardless of mileage / condition) come with their own sets of issues.

It seems like you're not comfortable modifying your car, for various reasons, and that's your business. It's your car, your money, your time after all. But it also seems (if I am misinterpreting what you're saying, that's on me) like you are trying to justify that feeling by defending your position.

You don't need to.

It's all a learning curve. If you are making major modifications (like a supercharger) regardless of whether or not you install it yourself or pay someone to - there is a greater chance of having issues to take care of. When you add more power - and try to regularly put that power to the ground - you of course have a higher chance of damaging / overwhelming another part of the car that wasn't designed for that power.

That's the nature of the beast.

There's an old saying when it comes to building cars / trucks.

Fast, reliable, cheap.

Pick two.

A well thought out response and for the most part right on point.

Having gone through the carburetor tuning you describe many times back in the day, I agree that a reflash is quicker and easier. But, if I’m correct the reflash leaves a detectable “permanent mark” on your otherwise warranted car’s ECU.

There really is no free ride. Everything has consequences.

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[ctandc72]

A well thought out response and for the most part right on point.

Having gone through the carburetor tuning you describe many times back in the day, I agree that a reflash is quicker and easier. But, if I’m correct the reflash leaves a detectable “permanent mark” on your otherwise warranted car’s ECU.

There really is no free ride. Everything has consequences.

The only thing visible by Ford dealer techs via IDS (The system they use) is key / ignition cycle since last flash. And it's not just something that "pops up".

Ford service techs using IDS cannot tell if you have an aftermarket tune. The ECU has to be sent off and analyzed.

Ford has to PROVE the modifications caused the issue - just like any other manufacturer. Some dealers will simply try to deny certain things under warranty. If customers don't fight it - or go to another dealer - the the issue dies there.

Dealer service departments vary GREATLY. Everyone just says "Ford" or "GM" etc, but the dealer is a franchisee and just like ANY franchisee (fast food etc) locations differ greatly in customer service, experience etc etc.

I've witnessed different treatment at different dealers for the same vehicle / issue /owner multiple times. Hell, I once had to convince a Co worker to take his Toyota Tundra (covered under the Toyota frame replacement program) to ANOTHER Dealer, because "his" dealer told him his truck wasn't eligible. He went to another dealer and they told him he was eligible and gave him the option of having the frame replaced (FREE + loaner car) or they would give him 150% of trade in value if he wanted a replacement truck.

My point? There is a chance you could tune your car, blow up your engine and it not be covered under warranty. There is also a chance you'll get a lemon. Both percentages are likely VERY low - but they exist.

 

[young at heart]

The only thing visible by Ford dealer techs via IDS (The system they use) is key / ignition cycle since last flash. And it's not just something that "pops up".

Ford service techs using IDS cannot tell if you have an aftermarket tune. The ECU has to be sent off and analyzed.

Ford has to PROVE the modifications caused the issue - just like any other manufacturer. Some dealers will simply try to deny certain things under warranty. If customers don't fight it - or go to another dealer - the the issue dies there.

Dealer service departments vary GREATLY. Everyone just says "Ford" or "GM" etc, but the dealer is a franchisee and just like ANY franchisee (fast food etc) locations differ greatly in customer service, experience etc etc.

I've witnessed different treatment at different dealers for the same vehicle / issue /owner multiple times. Hell, I once had to convince a Co worker to take his Toyota Tundra (covered under the Toyota frame replacement program) to ANOTHER Dealer, because "his" dealer told him his truck wasn't eligible. He went to another dealer and they told him he was eligible and gave him the option of having the frame replaced (FREE + loaner car) or they would give him 150% of trade in value if he wanted a replacement truck.

My point? There is a chance you could tune your car, blow up your engine and it not be covered under warranty. There is also a chance you'll get a lemon. Both percentages are likely VERY low - but they exist.

Again, right on point. Like myself, you sound like an industry insider.

Another variable, one that is very blind to the consumer and normally impossible to prove, is the particular dealer’s relationship with the factory. The factory will automatically sign off on certain dealers warranty requests while other dealers are on 100% double check over a certain dollar threshold. The customer is often caught smack in the middle of this and has no idea.

 

[gadgtfreek]

I do generally the same stuff to every car now, tint, better floor mats, exhaust, CAI and tune and then leave it alone. I have a catch can from Ford Perf I need to install, and lightweight wheels from LMR. That's really gonna be it. I'm very interested by the Roush Stage 2 kit with a dealer install, but it just opens up lots of other problems, and traction can be an issue currently, let alone that power. Mine is a daily driver first, so its quick enough, looks great (detail weekly), and sounds great.

 

[tw557]

I don't think is quite as easy to just say Ford has to Prove it. Sure if you get to the lawyer level but are you willing to do that once Ford just simply states you need to pay for the blown motor because we said so. Usually every tune advances a little spark and leans out the AFR up top so they would be quick to say there is enough evidence to be the probable cause.

Also if I had a car under warranty especially if its a little questionable such as Loud ticks and rattles, I would not be tuning. From the testing I just did and posted in the 5.0 forum, there is very little gains in outright performance from just a tune and even from some bolt ons. Honestly a peddle commmander or such to replicate the amped up throttle that the tuners do to a stock tune gets you pretty damn close, especially if you have a manual trans.

 

[friedmud]

I have done: floor mats, rock blockz, jacking rails, clear bra, ceramic coat, and iPhone mount. The last mod I'm planning on doing is window tint.

After that: it will stay like it is until the powertrain warranty runs out. At that point, I'll consider it a "hobby" and start messing with it because it will be fun - but I still plan to not go crazy.

Like the OP said: these are already MORE than enough for on-road use - which is what I bought it for.

 

[ctandc72]

I don't think is quite as easy to just say Ford has to Prove it. Sure if you get to the lawyer level but are you willing to do that once Ford just simply states you need to pay for the blown motor because we said so. Usually every tune advances a little spark and leans out the AFR up top so they would be quick to say there is enough evidence to be the probable cause.

Also if I had a car under warranty especially if its a little questionable such as Loud ticks and rattles, I would not be tuning. From the testing I just did and posted in the 5.0 forum, there is very little gains in outright performance from just a tune and even from some bolt ons. Honestly a peddle commmander or such to replicate the amped up throttle that the tuners do to a stock tune gets you pretty damn close, especially if you have a manual trans.

Several things to unpack here.

Keep in mind - you keep saying "Ford" when what you mean is "dealer". There is a HUGE difference between dealerships. I've worked at dealers. I have friends who have worked / managed dealerships - the initial "yes" or "no" is PURELY the dealer. It's just like being denied on an insurance claim or getting that first lowball offer when your car is totaled.

As mentioned by someone else earlier in this thread, there is another layer that most customers never see and that's the relationship of that dealer / owner with the manufacturer, in this case Ford.

So the dealer can say "NOT COVERED" - but that's NOT a FORD decision. Federal law - they have to PROVE the modifications in question caused the failure that they are trying to deny. Sad truth is most people just say "okay fix it" or they trade it in and the dealer fixes and sells it again.

Again, the difference in dealers CANNOT be stressed enough. I personally witnessed a GM dealer tell a guy that the engine in his 4th Gen Body wasn't covered under warranty because it had been "overrevved". Which is funny - considering the factory rev limiter prevents that. That car had exhaust, shifter, and air intake. He had it towed to a dealer literally a few miles down the road - they called him the next day - they ordered an engine.

You talk about "very little gains" - depends on what you're talking about.

Add long tubes, E85 tune, intake - you're talking an easy 10% gain in HP. That's nothing to sneeze at.

As for a "Pedal Commander" or other throttle signal booster - you know that add ZERO POWER right? None. Nada. Zilch. All it does is intercept the signal from the potentiometer on the gas pedal (that tells the ECU how much throttle you the drive want, via your right foot) and boosts it. That's it. It may FEEL faster - but it isn't.

Thing is, modern drive by wire ECUs have built in tables. It takes readings from various sensors, then looks at what % of throttle opening the drive is asking for and based on those readings - it actual gives a certain % of throttle opening. It's not a "1 for 1" like a cable operated throttle body.

While tuners in various makes do sometimes modify these tables - they don't add any power whatsoever. In fact it simply give you MORE throttle than your foot is asking for and it feels like you have "better throttle response". Literally you can replicate this by....giving it more throttle without paying $ for a pedal commander etc.

For ME - I'm not concerned with peak HP gains. I've tuned plenty of vehicles under warranty. I drive my cars - every day normally. All year round. I want more power under the normal torque curve - where I can feel it and use it everyday. That's one major benefit to getting dyno tuned.

Making a choice to not tune your own car because you don't feel the risk is worth reward is one thing. Simply saying "Tuning and bolt on's only give small gains" is honestly ridiculous.

 

[thompsje]

I've got a 2018 GT Premium 6MT (non-PP) and I'm not really going for more power. It's my daily and I'm not racing it, but the 3 mods I couldn't live without are

Steeda Clutch Spring
BMR Subframe lockouts
Steeda X-brace

The X-brace is huge for steering feel and turn in. The steering wheel is still big enough it belongs in a bus... but it's not a sloppy, uncommunicative bus now.

The subframe lockouts eliminated the "greasy" feeling in the rear end when doing something like merging onto a highway or just pulling out into fast traffic. You don't need wheel hop to know that rear isn't quite firmly attached. How much those two things improve the car for less than $500 total is amazing.

I did the upper strut brace too but TBH, on top of the X-brace it didn't really add that much.

 

[tw557]

As I stated, there is actually very little gain with just a tune and CAI. I just data logged stock, preloaded 93 sct, Vmp and Pbd. They all gave identical acceleration from 3000 to 6800 other then Vmp was a little less.

But Pbd feels much quicker. So it looks like the only real gain I got is more responsive throttle, the same thing a peddle commander will do. So yes I know it adds no power. But in general it's more responsive under normal driving because the peddle is always virtually pushed farther then you planned.

Sure headers e85 and other bolt ons add nice results. I was just stating to me the minimal if any gains from just a tune is not worth jeopardizing the warranty on a 10000 motor. The risk reward just isn't there.

 

[ctandc72]

As I stated, there is actually very little gain with just a tune and CAI. I just data logged stock, preloaded 93 sct, Vmp and Pbd. They all gave identical acceleration from 3000 to 6800 other then Vmp was a little less.

But Pbd feels much quicker. So it looks like the only real gain I got is more responsive throttle, the same thing a peddle commander will do. So yes I know it adds no power. But in general it's more responsive under normal driving because the peddle is always virtually pushed farther then you planned.

No offense - seriously - but I've been wrenching and modifying cars for 30+ years. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who have built more engines than me, know a ton more than I do etc....that being said, the butt dyno is not reliable. I've personally had cars that FELT faster after modifications and ran slower trap speeds in the 1/4 mile. Note I said trap speeds - not ET.

Everyone is different. Your car, your money, your time - do what you want. For me - and this is just my opinion for my cars - the biggest advantage to a tune on a street-driven car (I drive mine daily year round) is NOT peak HP. It's power picked up under the normal power curves. Power you can use everyday when your driving and not going speeds that will land you in jail or being a VIP Uber customer.

I'd gladly trade 20HP at 7500RPM in my '19 GT for 20 ft/lbs of torque at say 2500RPM - for MY car and how I drive it everyday. Everyone always focuses on peak gains and acceleration numbers - and that's great - if you're writing a magazine article.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[EP10R80]

FBO with a tune isn't going to be reliable?

How many have blown or damaged Gen 3s without power adders?

If it's common then I'm not touching my car anymore and will revert back to stock one day. All it has is BMR springs and the mbrp race exhaust. I plan on keeping this car forever, but if FBO will blow or damage my engine before warranty runs out or 150,000 miles I'll trade it in.

Fbo (cobra jet, long tubes, etc) not being reliable sounds a little hard to believe. When I say not reliable I mean blown or damaged engine and out of warranty. Someone with mods, tune, and experience please fill me in.

 

[tw557]

No offense - seriously - but I've been wrenching and modifying cars for 30+ years. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who have built more engines than me, know a ton more than I do etc....that being said, the butt dyno is not reliable. I've personally had cars that FELT faster after modifications and ran slower trap speeds in the 1/4 mile. Note I said trap speeds - not ET.

Actually it sounds like we have the same goals. I really do not care much about redline power. I very seldom go WOT as I daily drive. I want all the torque and low end/midrange power I can get. This is why a 18 manifold does not attract me. Unfortunately the only way to really get consistent data is to do WOT logs. Doing these logs I saw the difference was extremely little. BUT I noticed that my PBD tune was much quicker part throttle. So much so sometimes I would get the surging hops from my foot ossilating on the pedal in second gear out of a turn. So it had a lot more actual power at 2500 rpm then the stock tune. BUT, from what it looks like it is because PBD and others have the throttle tables amped up. At one point I saw 85 deg throttle angle at 48 % pedal position. vs 88deg at 80 pedal position stock. So it does have more power with PBD tune but because the throttle is literially open more. Same thing a pedalmax will do.

I have built and tune pretty many race motors in my younger days first for Karting then Roadbike racing. Yep, the carberator days. And really there is just not much HP to be gained by tweaking a tune on a N/A motor. A little rich or lean, spark advance and then the valve timing. It really is very hard for butt dyno to notice like you mentioned.

So from what I saw and felt, my stock tune with a pedalmax felt and performed almost the exact same as the PBD tune except for the transmission tune and a little softer at redline. Looks like the stock tune goes pretty rich. Since my car is out of warranty and I don't feel the tunes will hurt a motor I'm fine with the cost even with the small gains. But I will admit I was hoping for more. But as seen from my datalog of the 4 tune tune options, they are so close under the whole curve. VMP actually seems consistently lower though. I really really wish I had e85 in my area though.

 

[tw557]

FBO with a tune isn't going to be reliable?

I have got to think that any reliable FBO parts and tuning from any of the reliable tuners will not cause any notable engine wear or damage. I'd just be more worried if a brand new car and have a factory defect issue which have been noted in the 18+ year a little bit such as cylinder scoring and such. I'd hate to have Ford deny my new motor because they will say that there is at least some possability the tune caused it.

The dealer relationship is real though. When I was going to Ford Performance tune my Ecoboost, one dealer said expect the motor not to be covered by Ford if it blows. Another Dealer said if they purchase and install the tune they guarenteed I have nothing to worry about.

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