Aftermarket lugs?

[TonyNJ]

They’re pricey, but dang, it’s a purchase you will not regret.

Go full racecar and do studs and all. It’s the little things…

Those are Gorilla lugnuts? Which set exactly? They look good for R studs on non CF wheels.

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[galaxy]

@TonyNJ LOL…these are not Gorilla lug nuts. Titanium from Terrence @ Signature Wheels.

 

[Tomster]

I still scratch my head wondering why torque data was never engineered and published for the titanium lug nuts. To avoid galling, a lube needs to be applied, like ARP. Once you do that, the published OEM torque values go out the window. You can guesstimate the torque reduction, but when you are subjecting your car to extreme applications (track use), I want to rely on more than an estimate. Steel studs are elastic. It is important that the studs are preloaded to the right torque. The published values are no longer valid when you apply a thread lubricant. Good product, just need some engineering to be complete.

And then there were the plastic covers to hide the stud vs lug difference for other fitments (GT500 or other wheel/stud combos).

However, the lugs look good on an OEM R stud where they are flush, as originally designed.

I think it's OK to use them on the street. But until the engineering is provided, I wouldn't use them on the track. It's a shame, there is a significant weight reduction and rotational mass. When I go out on the track, I use MSI steel lugs. Track proven and 100% reliable. Also, when switching from titanium to steel, all that ARP has to be cleaned off for accurate and reliable torque settings.

Perfect flush mount. As designed

Sorry, just doesn't look right. And plastic covers aren't the answer...

 

[NKNEFA6]

I have been using RAYS duraluminum lugs for years on diff cars, since our M14x1.5mm pitch allows, I got a set for the Velgens. I torque them to 150 lbs. no prob.

 

[Prodigal]

Very nice. Not cheap but buy once, cry once.

 

[spiralbevel]

I still scratch my head wondering why torque data was never engineered and published for the titanium lug nuts. To avoid galling, a lube needs to be applied, like ARP. Once you do that, the published OEM torque values go out the window. You can guesstimate the torque reduction, but when you are subjecting your car to extreme applications (track use), I want to rely on more than an estimate. Steel studs are elastic. It is important that the studs are preloaded to the right torque. The published values are no longer valid when you apply a thread lubricant. Good product, just need some engineering to be complete.

Good points. I design and manufacture Titanium lug nuts (sold 50000 in 2023). Titanium Lug Nut could be more elastic than the steel stud. Some nuts have floating seats and it is still a question if you want to lubricate between the seat and the main body of Ti nut. I do not lubricate my floating seat designs, particularly with aluminum seats. But I do not recommend to lubricate the seat mating surface with the rim. Lubricate the thread only. My suggestion is 15% less torque because of less friction and much higher elasticity. Elasticity is an advantage for safety. When elastic material (Titanium) deforms, non-elastic (Steel) fails. Because Titanium is significantly more elastic than steel it allows higher margin of error in nut torque, particularly if you use Titanium studs with Titanium nuts. Ti provides a significant advantage particularly in racing environment when the hubs get hot. Steel lugs loose clamping force because of poor elasticity. Ti lugs hold the clamping force at higher temperature much better because of higher elastic deformation when used at 15% less torque. Over all conclusion is: “It is hard to go wrong with Ti” but you have to use anti seize compound on the thread. 15% less is over kill for safety thank to elasticity of Ti. 25% less torque will be ok as well but most of the users may not feel safe with low lug torque. Less Ti torque does the same of better job. It is good for the car – car will live longer. Just check the torque in a week or so to make sure you did not get lubrication on the seat mating surface.
Thank you for a good question.
Stepan.

 

[Tomster]

Good points. I design and manufacture Titanium lug nuts (sold 50000 in 2023). Titanium Lug Nut could be more elastic than the steel stud. Some nuts have floating seats and it is still a question if you want to lubricate between the seat and the main body of Ti nut. I do not lubricate my floating seat designs, particularly with aluminum seats. But I do not recommend to lubricate the seat mating surface with the rim. Lubricate the thread only. My suggestion is 15% less torque because of less friction and much higher elasticity. Elasticity is an advantage for safety. When elastic material (Titanium) deforms, non-elastic (Steel) fails. Because Titanium is significantly more elastic than steel it allows higher margin of error in nut torque, particularly if you use Titanium studs with Titanium nuts. Ti provides a significant advantage particularly in racing environment when the hubs get hot. Steel lugs loose clamping force because of poor elasticity. Ti lugs hold the clamping force at higher temperature much better because of higher elastic deformation when used at 15% less torque. Over all conclusion is: “It is hard to go wrong with Ti” but you have to use anti seize compound on the thread. 15% less is over kill for safety thank to elasticity of Ti. 25% less torque will be ok as well but most of the users may not feel safe with low lug torque. Less Ti torque does the same of better job. It is good for the car – car will live longer. Just check the torque in a week or so to make sure you did not get lubrication on the seat mating surface.
Thank you for a good question.
Stepan.

Excellent. Yes, do not lube the nut to seat. However, I think it's irresponsible to manufacture and distribute these lugs for track use without some kind of engineering data. Things have potential to go bad at the track. Lug nuts really shouldn't be a concern. It's an additional expense most manufacturers don't want to get involved in. On the other hand, liability would be a concern....... unless they would try to deferr by claiming track use is not the intended purpose of the lugs.

 

[spiralbevel]

Excellent. Yes, do not lube the nut to seat. However, I think it's irresponsible to manufacture and distribute these lugs for track use without some kind of engineering data. Things have potential to go bad at the track. Lug nuts really shouldn't be a concern. It's an additional expense most manufacturers don't want to get involved in. On the other hand, liability would be a concern....... unless they would try to deferr by claiming track use is not the intended purpose of the lugs.

Good point. I have seen a wheel coming off 75mph car on I-5. There are regulations in the US on the aftermarket rims, but not as strict as in EU. If we had US government regulation as strict as EU has, we would not have aftermarket rims/lugs due to frivolous lawsuits. I am not sure if you can legally claim damages when something happens on the track since driving on the track may not be exactly the intendent use of the vehicle. As I explained already, titanium lugs are very safe. The only possible issue is wrong Gr2 titanium. Aerospace Gr5 titanium looks identical to Gr2 (pure titanium.) Gr5 titanium is the material that you want. Gr5 is 2x stronger than Gr2. But there is no simple method to tell if you have Gr5. Gr5 may show some minor discoloration over time because it is slightly corrosive. Gr5 aerospace alloy is 90% titanium. About 50% of "Titanium" nuts on the market are made out of Gr2 because of the cost. Particularly large size nuts are often made out of low-grade (low machining cost) titanium. Pure Ti is much less cost in machining. But, we do not see titanium lugs failing despite high portion of them are wrong. This observation confirms my theory that titanium lugs are naturally very safe even if made not exactly as promoted.

 

[Tomster]

Good point. I have seen a wheel coming off 75mph car on I-5. There are regulations in the US on the aftermarket rims, but not as strict as in EU. If we had US government regulation as strict as EU has, we would not have aftermarket rims/lugs due to frivolous lawsuits. I am not sure if you can legally claim damages when something happens on the track since driving on the track may not be exactly the intendent use of the vehicle. As I explained already, titanium lugs are very safe. The only possible issue is wrong Gr2 titanium. Aerospace Gr5 titanium looks identical to Gr2 (pure titanium.) Gr5 titanium is the material that you want. Gr5 is 2x stronger than Gr2. But there is no simple method to tell if you have Gr5. Gr5 may show some minor discoloration over time because it is slightly corrosive. Gr5 aerospace alloy is 90% titanium. About 50% of "Titanium" nuts on the market are made out of Gr2 because of the cost. Particularly large size nuts are often made out of low-grade (low machining cost) titanium. Pure Ti is much less cost in machining. But, we do not see titanium lugs failing despite high portion of them are wrong. This observation confirms my theory that titanium lugs are naturally very safe even if made not exactly as promoted.

Again, spot on. My argument is simple. Each stud needs the correct torque applied to achieve the proper preload accounting for elasticity. The vehicle manufacturer publishes these numbers. Once you throw a lube into the mix, those numbers don't mean anything. Many sellers take the quick way out and just say "ah, just reduce the torque values by 10%". Some won't even say that, they just sell the lugs and leave it up to the buyer to figure it out.

Instead of having torque values derived from an engineering analysis, most sellers bypass that route for the sake of profit. Simply put, if the correct preload is not applied, the stud will not perform as it was intended from the vehicle manufacturer. There is a reason engineers specify torque settings. Too much torque and the structural integrity of the stud (and possibly the lug) has been permanently compromised. Too little torque and the part (stud in this case) will not perform as engineered by the manufacturer.

The Ford GT had as an option titanium lug nuts. I cannot find the engineered torque values nor the lube they use. I would imagine that the stud preload is about the same as the 350/500s. Finding those values and using interpolation would be much better than a ballpark torque reduction based upon nothing. But the only way to determine the correct torque would be to have a engineering analysis accomplished using a specific stud, lug, and lube. I believe that is the responsibility of the person who markets and sells lugs like this for track use.

I'm yet to see anyone who sells these lugs provide torque values based upon any kind of engineering.

 

[spiralbevel]

...Many sellers take the quick way out and just say "ah, just reduce the torque values by 10%". Some won't even say that, they just sell the lugs and leave it up to the buyer to figure it out.

Instead of having torque values derived from an engineering analysis, most sellers bypass that route for the sake of profit. ...

I'm yet to see anyone who sells these lugs provide torque values based upon any kind of engineering.

May I ask you check my web site and tell me if you, as an average customer, still want to see engineering reports on my nuts? As you can see, I provide transmission gear and variable ratio steering rack design for the car that you drive and for the flight that you take. Since you drive and fly on my work product without asking me to publish a report, would you feel just as comfortable to drive on my nuts without nut reports? Besides, if you did not see reports it does not mean the reports do not exist. If reports do not exist it does not mean that engineering calculation has not been made.
But showing some good-looking reports is a good idea. You are not the first suggesting. I publish original manufacturing drawings on most of my listings so my customers have all the engineering data to verify the strength and fitment. I wish other Ti nut suppliers publish detailed manufacturing drawings as well so we know exactly what we are purchasing.

 

[Hoofer]

Again, spot on. My argument is simple. Each stud needs the correct torque applied to achieve the proper preload accounting for elasticity. The vehicle manufacturer publishes these numbers. Once you throw a lube into the mix, those numbers don't mean anything. Many sellers take the quick way out and just say "ah, just reduce the torque values by 10%". Some won't even say that, they just sell the lugs and leave it up to the buyer to figure it out.

Instead of having torque values derived from an engineering analysis, most sellers bypass that route for the sake of profit. Simply put, if the correct preload is not applied, the stud will not perform as it was intended from the vehicle manufacturer. There is a reason engineers specify torque settings. Too much torque and the structural integrity of the stud (and possibly the lug) has been permanently compromised. Too little torque and the part (stud in this case) will not perform as engineered by the manufacturer.

The Ford GT had as an option titanium lug nuts. I cannot find the engineered torque values nor the lube they use. I would imagine that the stud preload is about the same as the 350/500s. Finding those values and using interpolation would be much better than a ballpark torque reduction based upon nothing. But the only way to determine the correct torque would be to have a engineering analysis accomplished using a specific stud, lug, and lube. I believe that is the responsibility of the person who markets and sells lugs like this for track use.

I'm yet to see anyone who sells these lugs provide torque values based upon any kind of engineering.

How many different types of lubricants are there that could be applied to lug nuts?

 

[Tomster]

How many different types of lubricants are there that could be applied to lug nuts?

Most use ARP. How many? The sky is the limit

 

[Tomster]

May I ask you check my web site and tell me if you, as an average customer, still want to see engineering reports on my nuts? As you can see, I provide transmission gear and variable ratio steering rack design for the car that you drive and for the flight that you take. Since you drive and fly on my work product without asking me to publish a report, would you feel just as comfortable to drive on my nuts without nut reports? Besides, if you did not see reports it does not mean the reports do not exist. If reports do not exist it does not mean that engineering calculation has not been made.
But showing some good-looking reports is a good idea. You are not the first suggesting. I publish original manufacturing drawings on most of my listings so my customers have all the engineering data to verify the strength and fitment. I wish other Ti nut suppliers publish detailed manufacturing drawings as well so we know exactly what we are purchasing.

Not necessarily geared towards you, but anyone who sells a lug nut that needs lube due to galling of dissimilar metals should supply the engineering data for its use.

I don't think drawings has anything to do with it. The consumer needs to know the torque to achieve preload using a specific lube and lug nut to do this correctly.

If you have the engineering data, provide it. Most sellers just use the rule of thumb to reduce torque by 10 or so percent. If I was running around on the street, It probably wouldn't matter much. When you are going 180 mph, the last thing I want to worry about is what holds the wheel to the car.

 

[spiralbevel]

How many different types of lubricants are there that could be applied to lug nuts?

More accurately to ask what is the variation of the static coefficient of friction. Coefficient of friction is the key for the correct torque calculation. Variation of friction with anti-seize compound is less than for non-lubricated steel lugs. This means higher probability to have correct clamping force when Titanium is used. Over all, it is easier to get wrong clamping on steel lugs than on titanium.
Besides, all the aftermarket rims are made to fail before the lug nuts.

 

[Hoofer]

Most use ARP. How many? The sky is the limit

Right. There's thousands of lubricants that could be used. That's why mfrs don't post lubed torque specs.

And what about temperature?

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