Aftermarket lugs?

[galaxy]

I'll even add this, becuse no one talks about this when we talk about the lug nut torque on this car.

The torque for this car is not 150 lb ft...it's 150 + - 15.

That's a 30 lb window from 135 - 165 lb ft where Ford says the torque on the studs (assuming stock studs...throw that into the mix, LOL) is correct. Now, I'm no engineer (not that kinda engineer anyways), but for the slightly above average gear head/track rat that puts a half ounce of attention to detail into wrenching on their car, you'd have to try pretty hard to miss that window. Dry or wet threads, using the 10% rule, doesn't matter. If you put in the effort, you're safe. I'm not trying to downplay the topic, and not accusing you guys of making a mountain out of a molehill. And I'm certainly not taking away from the safety point of guys on the track trying to set a new land speed record...but I do think talking in such a manner where missing the exact micro torque by a pound or two means certain catastrophie...eehhh, that's a bit much. And that's all I got to say about that.

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[spiralbevel]

The torque for this car is not 150 lb ft...it's 150 + - 15.

That's a 30 lb window from 135 - 165 lb ft where Ford says the torque on the studs (assuming stock studs...throw that into the mix, LOL) is correct. ...

And, 10% reduction means [135-13.5 to 150-15] vs [135 – 165] original. Torque wrench +/-5% asccuracy shrinks the torque wrench setting window to [135*1.05 …. 165*0.95] or [141...157].

 

[galaxy]

I apply it as such...150 is the target, -10% = 135. I dial in 135 settting on my torque wrench. Should put me back to an effetive 150. Even with any torque wrench tolerance, or variance on the 10% rule, I'm still safely back in the acceptable window.

 

[Tomster]

Engineer the solution. Defer liability. Give rhe consumer some piece of mind instead of relying on estimates and rules of thumb.

To market and sell such a product without the proper engineering realy leaves the opportunity of a lawsuit (if God forbid something goes wrong).

Most of these sellers are small potatoes LLCs that have nothing to lose if there was an issue.

My advice is pay for the engineering and defer liability. But that would cost too much I assume?

 

[galaxy]

Sooooo…question though. (Recommended) Torque values are based on the stud, and the physical characteristics that happen to it. It seems to me, the stud doesn’t care what material the nut is made out of. Seems to me the material of the nut woukdnt change the torque value needed to stretch a stud X amount. Certainly prepared to be wrong on that. But I do know this, what (little) homework I have done on the topic, the torque value does come from the stud manufacturer. I don’t see how the nut manufacturer would be the source of that value. The variables and options of studs and composition you could be using said nut on are endless. How could the nut manufacturer ever provide this?

 

[NightmareMoon]

Sooooo…question though. (Recommended) Torque values are based on the stud, and the physical characteristics that happen to it. It seems to me, the stud doesn’t care what material the nut is made out of. Seems to me the material of the nut woukdnt change the torque value needed to stretch a stud X amount. Certainly prepared to be wrong on that. But I do know this, what (little) homework I have done on the topic, the torque value does come from the stud manufacturer. I don’t see how the nut manufacturer would be the source of that value. The variables and options of studs and composition you could be using said nut on are endless. How could the nut manufacturer ever provide this?

I hope that was a question and not an assertion, but yes the friction between the lig and stud and thus the materials/coatings matter.

The torque on the lug has to overcome the friction of the threads on lug and stud before it can move and stretch the bolt.. so if you lower the friction, it takes less torque at the lug to get the same nut position/bolt stretch/clamping force.

 

[galaxy]

@NightmareMoon yessir, t’was questions.

 

[SL8888]

My Beautiful Bride got me these for Christmas, here are the details for the Raceseng titanium lug nuts…

 

[Tomster]

My Beautiful Bride got me these for Christmas, here are the details for the Raceseng titanium lug nuts…

Excellent. Finally a responsible company doing the right thing. I wonder who will come along and "borrow" the data?

 

[spiralbevel]

Excellent. Finally a responsible company doing the right thing. I wonder who will come along and "borrow" the data?

Just want to play more on the engineering note:

As they say: “The Devil is in the Details.”

• Based on the chart spread the lubricated torque data does not look like derived from an engineering simulation/calculation. What make data points 2 and 10 so much different from points 7 and 14?
• Where does RACESENG want the lubricant to be applied. Average recommended 13.5% torque reduction suggests that only thread has to be lubricated. But RACESENG Instagram video shows inside seat lubrication while assembling floating seats. Lubricating the back of the rotating seat reduces friction (required install torque) more than lubrication of the 60 deg seat face.
• It should be another torque table for rotating seats. Rotating seats reduce required install torque due to lower force between the rotating surfaces.
• The units [FT LB] are used for energy (at least in engineering environment), while pronunciation is foot-pound. You would not know this unless you read engineering publications. If you have been around engineers and overheard “foot-pound” you would probably think that [FT LB] abbreviation is used on engineering reports: [lbf-ft] [N-m]

As an engineer, I would feel more respectful to RACESENG lubricated torque recommendation if it was just something like “reduce spec torque for a little.” At least it would not make me inspired to examine the recommendation table. Now, visualize how many errors and discrepancies an engineer can find in a deep scientific report with derivations that would blow your socks off. This is the reason why a responsible supplier would not publish anything that pretends to be engineering. Assuming RACESENG lubricated torque table made you feel more like purchasing from RACESENG. Would you feel more or less like purchasing from RACESENG after reading this comment? This will answer why the suppliers do not publish more than it takes to sale.

BTW, why would not offer them pre-relubricated? Some of my customers do not even lubricate Titanium conversion kits: Titanium nut over Titanium stud.

 

[JAJ]

Just want to play more on the engineering note:

As they say: “The Devil is in the Details.”

• Based on the chart spread the lubricated torque data does not look like derived from an engineering simulation/calculation. What make data points 2 and 10 so much different from points 7 and 14?
• Where does RACESENG want the lubricant to be applied. Average recommended 13.5% torque reduction suggests that only thread has to be lubricated. But RACESENG Instagram video shows inside seat lubrication while assembling floating seats. Lubricating the back of the rotating seat reduces friction (required install torque) more than lubrication of the 60 deg seat face.
• It should be another torque table for rotating seats. Rotating seats reduce required install torque due to lower force between the rotating surfaces.
• The units [FT LB] are used for energy (at least in engineering environment), while pronunciation is foot-pound. You would not know this unless you read engineering publications. If you have been around engineers and overheard “foot-pound” you would probably think that [FT LB] abbreviation is used on engineering reports: [lbf-ft] [N-m]

As an engineer, I would feel more respectful to RACESENG lubricated torque recommendation if it was just something like “reduce spec torque for a little.” At least it would not make me inspired to examine the recommendation table. Now, visualize how many errors and discrepancies an engineer can find in a deep scientific report with derivations that would blow your socks off. This is the reason why a responsible supplier would not publish anything that pretends to be engineering. Assuming RACESENG lubricated torque table made you feel more like purchasing from RACESENG. Would you feel more or less like purchasing from RACESENG after reading this comment? This will answer why the suppliers do not publish more than it takes to sale.

BTW, why would not offer them pre-relubricated? Some of my customers do not even lubricate Titanium conversion kits: Titanium nut over Titanium stud.

View attachment 802926

There is no mystery here., but there is complexity. I built an algorithm in Excel to figure out how they got the values they got. They seem to have decided to reduce the torque by 13.5%, and then wherever possible, they used standard 5 lb-ft intervals. If the calculated torque value wasn't within 1.5% of a "standard 5 interval" they just rounded it off and put it on the list.

Here's how the calculation looks:

1. Multiply all the OEM numbers by 86.5% (target torque reduction of 13.5%)

2. Create a "standard sequence" of 5 lb-ft intervals starting at 65. Goes like this: 65 - 70 - 75 - etc. up to 130.

3. If the difference between each calculated torque value and the nearest number in the 5 lb-ft standard sequence steps is less than 1.5%, then use the nearest value in the standard sequence in the final table.

4. If the calculated value is not within 1.5% of a standard increment, then round off the calculated torque value to the nearest integer value and use it in the final table.

You get exactly the list of reduced torque values in the table published by RACESENG. Seems like pretty good engineering to me.

By the way, is "AVARAGE" an engineering term? I've never seen it used before.

 

[spiralbevel]

By the way, is "AVARAGE" an engineering term? I've never seen it used before.

Thank you for “AVARAGE.”

The first two RACESENG columns are easy to get into Excel because there is simple logic in the sequence. The two other columns have no simple logic in the sequence. Perhaps, (Next number)=(Previous number)+(130-65)/15 formula was too complex for RACESENG so they produced the numbers the way you exclaimed and it made it look the way I see it.

 

[5550snotamerc]

Nobody has time to hand tighten. Just get good lug nuts and move on hahaha

This guy duggas

 

[spiralbevel]

Titanium Lug bolt torque test video.

221.8 lb-ft is the maximum for my torque sensor. M12 x 1.25 did not fail. The same thread nuts are significantly stronger than bolts.

 

[rcboxer]

ARP studs with Ford Performance lugs.

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