What can Livernois Motorsports do for you?

AmericanLegend said:

It would be a huge positive if the Livernois 'mycalibrator' was able to datalog.
Even if there was a small fee involved for a Livernois technician to review datalogs and adjust tunes.

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Exactly why I didn't end up going with Livernois tuning... I want to know what's going on with MY car instead of just taking their word for it what they've done.

Lets gingerly approach the datalog scenario, If you want to monitor your vehicle with an outside device and if you see any massive issue with numbers you are always able to contact us and we will work with you, no one ever said we wouldn't. Part of what tends to get lost in the shuffle is that as a company we do not rely on the customer for said tunes, in the case such as this we went out and purchased a 5.0 to do all the testing and calibration on along with verifying it on the various models that come through the shop for install. Of course that is all with previous approval by the customers that we obtain new information to continually improve the tunes. Nothing leaves here without being tested on both the road and the dyno for verification purposes. It is never our intention/goal or mantra to damage a vehicle by sending you a dangerous tune, which is why we spend so much time/money/resources on R&D for these.
I guess what gets lost here is that we have many MANY customers that are non-forum members with zero issues from their tunes compared to the vocal minority that consistently rip us for the lack of datalogging that our handheld unit has. I want to clarify that I am not throwing shade at anyone who prefers the datalogging method, we just do not require/need that for our tuning.

This is an excerpt from a previous post on this forum. I was not the author of this, but one of the calibrators was.



"There are no additional charges for us to update your tuning remotely. We are using all of your build data, mods, octane and environmental information to build your tuning. So there is no more perfect information to use.

Anyone taking the native values and recalculating them into something else that gives a chance for things to be miscalculated. This is the biggest issues we see with data logging or tune monitoring.If someone​​ looks at AFR on a monitoring device, that value is already calculated. But the issue is what conversion are they using? 14.64? 14.08? something else? Now, what about what is in your tank. If they are assuming e10, and you have something more like e6, that instantly makes the applied conversion inc​​orrect. Then, what if they aren't grabbing the right data point from the ECM to log it? What if they are grabbing one with an offset already added in? or a delay? or a commanded VS actual average?​​
​​
You can see where one simple item like "AFR" is all of a sudden riddled with chances of incorrect data being displayed and/or gathered.​ ​Now, we haven't even started talking about boost, or any other myriad of items that could be logged. You see, the Data points that almost all dataloggers use are SAE. Now, SAE standards are nice, BUT they are not designed for someone to do calibration from. They are for repair shops to help diagnose issues with vehicles. So, the level of precision, and refresh rate is not what's needed to do proper calibration development. If you are using a data point with a 200ms refresh rate, but the actual value in the ECM refreshes every 8ms, then the ECM is updating 50x more frequently then what you are watching. Again, you start to see where the issues happen and it's easier to understand why we do not treat the EcoBoost like any other engine before it. Can someone get lucky and eventually end up with a tune that works by looking at the wrong data? Absolutely. Can they repeat those results over and over again without starting from scratch each time? Usually not. And it all stems from having the right knowledge, and data in the first place.
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​N​o where does the computer spit out A/F data. Yet the data logger you're using is providing your tuner with this inaccurate A/F data. This is why we data log our own vehicles in house, to ensure it's the correct format and information required. What good does inaccurate data do anyone? That is how people end up with engine failures. Making tune adjustments from this incorrect data. When there is an option that allows remote, accurate, seamless data logging available, we wouldn't reject this, and is something we are working on developing, but again, it's not needed at all due to our procedures we have in place today.​​

To make it a little easier to picture for most people. ​​If Ford, GM, Chrysler, or any auto manufacturer could spend $30-50 on hardware to datalog and do calibration, why don't they? The answer is simple, you can't, it takes 10's of Thousands of dollars to have the right hardware just for the process to begin."​


link: http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57614&highlight=tune

I emailed Livernois tuning on the 10th with questions on one of my cars running your tune. What can Livernois do for me? Answer emails.

Gotta say I agree with Brazenbuck on that one ... when you say you'll get back, do it (e-mail or PM) ... I've got 2 o/s but you can forget about them as a supercharger is on the back burner for now after I just ordered 4 new wheels.

Livernois Motorsports said:

Lets gingerly approach the datalog scenario, If you want to monitor your vehicle with an outside device and if you see any massive issue with numbers you are always able to contact us and we will work with you, no one ever said we wouldn't. Part of what tends to get lost in the shuffle is that as a company we do not rely on the customer for said tunes, in the case such as this we went out and purchased a 5.0 to do all the testing and calibration on along with verifying it on the various models that come through the shop for install. Of course that is all with previous approval by the customers that we obtain new information to continually improve the tunes. Nothing leaves here without being tested on both the road and the dyno for verification purposes. It is never our intention/goal or mantra to damage a vehicle by sending you a dangerous tune, which is why we spend so much time/money/resources on R&D for these.
I guess what gets lost here is that we have many MANY customers that are non-forum members with zero issues from their tunes compared to the vocal minority that consistently rip us for the lack of datalogging that our handheld unit has. I want to clarify that I am not throwing shade at anyone who prefers the datalogging method, we just do not require/need that for our tuning.

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So on top of purchasing your device which is antiquated, us the passionate concerned customer is supposed to then buy another device to datalog with just to verify everything with OUR car is working correctly? Also by being able to datalog you could maybe expand your tuning abilities beyond "what has actually been through your shop" I like Livernois products, I really do, but your tuning services is a major turnoff.

I think the point that Livernois is making though is that you can't rely on the datalogs for 100% proper tuning adjustments. They've got much better tools in-house for that it appears.

Now could they take a datalog and ensure the tune is "reasonable"? Yes. Others do it.

Could they even make adjustments to it? Same answer but they'd rather get it right the first time using the more precise tools they have.

That's my take on it anyway ...

Jay-rod427 said:

So on top of purchasing your device which is antiquated, us the passionate concerned customer is supposed to then buy another device to datalog with just to verify everything with OUR car is working correctly?

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Nobody is saying you have to. If you are hung up on data logging, then that is the option with Livernois.

Jay-rod427 said:

So on top of purchasing your device which is antiquated, us the passionate concerned customer is supposed to then buy another device to datalog with just to verify everything with OUR car is working correctly? Also by being able to datalog you could maybe expand your tuning abilities beyond "what has actually been through your shop" I like Livernois products, I really do, but your tuning services is a major turnoff.

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I don't pressure test my headers to ensure the welds are perfect nor do I do X-ray's of my wheels to ensure no interstitial defects in my aftermarket wheels. Sometimes you need to trust the people who you are working with or do business elsewhere.

I get what you are saying but it seems like you are one of the few that demands more than the average enthusiast. I don't trust Ford tunes because they are can o' tune that are limited to stock parts. Some folks like Ford PP tunes. Awesome. Not about to tell Ford they are doing it wrong and insult their process because it isn't my way.

Ford has solid reasons for what they do and Livernois has shown to have good cause as well. Relax.

Performance nut said:

I don't pressure test my headers to ensure the welds are perfect nor do I do X-ray's of my wheels to ensure no interstitial defects in my aftermarket wheels. Sometimes you need to trust the people who you are working with or do business elsewhere.

I get what you are saying but it seems like you are one of the few that demands more than the average enthusiast. I don't trust Ford tunes because they are can o' tune that are limited to stock parts. Some folks like Ford PP tunes. Awesome. Not about to tell Ford they are doing it wrong and insult their process because it isn't my way.

Ford has solid reasons for what they do and Livernois has shown to have good cause as well. Relax.

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I'm perfectly relaxed! They asked what they can do for US. I replied. Exactly as you said I spent my money elsewhere.

Jay-rod427 said:

So on top of purchasing your device which is antiquated, us the passionate concerned customer is supposed to then buy another device to datalog with just to verify everything with OUR car is working correctly? Also by being able to datalog you could maybe expand your tuning abilities beyond "what has actually been through your shop" I like Livernois products, I really do, but your tuning services is a major turnoff.

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If we offered a monitoring option with the tuner, would that suffice?

Brazenbuck said:

I emailed Livernois tuning on the 10th with questions on one of my cars running your tune. What can Livernois do for me? Answer emails.

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Please, PM me the details of that and I will see what can be done to address it.

are you guys ever planning to update your device? i was seriously dead set on using you guys when i first got my car but the tuner you offer seriously turned me off.

its been asked a few times if you plan to update it, seeing how you are not answering, i'm guessing no

Livernois Motorsports said:

Please, PM me the details of that and I will see what can be done to address it.

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Done. Much appreciated.

Just to add to this conversation. I was asking about superchargers some time back. Livernois contacted me and gave me a really great offer on their blower that included install and tuning. I even priced out shipping costs to send my car there and back...from NJ. And even with the cost to send my car out there, it was still a great price. I have also contacted Livernois some time ago asking them for some details on their CAI. They got back to me immediately and answered all my questions. Even questions that other companies would probably hesitate to answer. They have always been polite with me. And I see the hazing they take from some members on here and I have yet to see them ever lose their cool. Especially considering that some of these (relatively) new companies out here tend to get short with people simply because they have a lot of business. I put Livernois, Team Beefcake, and Lethal Performance right up there with some of the best companies out right now. Thanks Livernois for always being there to answer questions and for your great offers!!