C&D 2016 Lightning Lap Numbers (GT350R Included)

thePill said:

Why would you take that away from my post?

Quite frankly, the EBPP and GTPP can do more with less money and less help. Look at the tire the SS and 1LE get vs. the GT in this class.

Look at the output advantage in the new car...

A GT won the FSL championship and had a strong showing in 2 or 3 other classes. The EBPP was only 0.5 seconds off the pace of a 2016 SS in the Finals.

The EBPP and GTPP are very, very, very competitive in the Real World. Dominate? It's getting closer, closer than last Gen for sure.

FS and the SCCA are very important for Camaro engineers. Honestly, it is the last place the Camaro is competitive. Unfortunately, that is changing faster than the Camaro can evolve. With this years results in the SCCA, don't be surprised if Ford isn't eager to change anything at the base level.


Especially when an R Package for a GT is all you need to make the SS obsolete. With a full size wheelbase, it's pretty much that way now.

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What tire advantage? They all run the same. Yes the EB was just over .61sec off the FS championship, but what happen to the other 8 s550 in the class? A S550 won the ladies FS class, but a 2016 SS was just under .73sec. from winning, so was she close like the EB was close?:shrug:

02gtnh said:

What tire advantage? They all run the same. Yes the EB was just over .61sec off the FS championship, but what happen to the other 8 s550 in the class? A S550 won the ladies FS class, but a 2016 SS was just under .73sec. from winning, so was she close like the EB was close?:shrug:

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Exactly... there is no tire advantage. Once tires are evened out, there is literally zero advantage between the cars. I have no idea why you struggle with this. The SCCA does placement comparisons every year and the world champions 1LE was only 0.25 seconds ahead of a prep'd loaded GTPP Premium.

Sorry bud, there isn't a large enough gap for Ford to care.

If it was as bad as the GT350 put down on the 1PE, maybe they would move. The issue is, the Camaro is allowed greater tire allowances, a larger output and seemingly a lighter weight.

All in which doesn't give a Camaro a large enough advantage to shake a GT or well driven EBPP.

That is FACT and a GTPP won the FSL title. So... I highly doubt Ford is in a rush.

The issue I see is an SS on 275/285's having difficulty with not only the GT and old 1LE, it's even in jeopardy of being bumped by an EBPP.

On the other side of the dense, the GTPP annihilated the SS in FSL. That is pretty much the Camaro's last two strongholds in SCCA. FS and FSL...

Unfortunately, the Mustang's superior setup and geometry out perform the power and weight advantages.

Now, a GTPP and EBPP is very competitive with 275/285's right? The same tire the 2016 uses. Why does the GT show greater improvement with the same tire, more weight and less power?

It's design and engineering. The Camaro will always need an extreme output advantage to contend with a smaller Mustang on equal tire.


That is evident and we have seen an army of Camaro engineers take to SCCA to see what the issue is.

Bill Wise himself and about 12 other GM engineers wanted to see what was wrong.


Simple, it's a full size car and isn't as nimble as a short wheelbase. It als lacks track width both front and rear. It is being left behind :(

As thePill said, the tires and track that comes standard on the Camaro is elementary. Ford won't benefit the GT with any more tire in this class, up from a 255/275 to a 275/285. The SS gets even more help here on its laughable stock 245/265's.

The SS benefits more from larger/better tire.


Let's not forget the entire season as well and all the Regionals. The new Mustang not only dominates the class nationwide, it is nearly 1/3rd of all registered vehicles. It's true, FS is the best Camaro class in existence. It is also true the EBPP and GT are a better bargain just comparing its efforts.


Don't expect much sucess in AS if the 1LE goes there. Essentially, a 1LE in race tire won't see the same results as an SS with 245/265's. Get my drift?

Norm Peterson said:

Zane - that $1100 might well have been enough at the mfr level to equalize track day performance on most club circuits. Where your $1100 is only a 'delta' production cost and not a matter of buying second sets of wheels, tires, shocks, springs, sta-bars, chassis bushings, etc., etc. That'd be a better indication of what could have been than applying that $1100 to any after-the-fact DIY effort where the builder gets only a fraction of his cost back on any of the OE parts if he's able to resell them at all.

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This is a really significant clarification. I've made the same point when discussing the same concept, i.e., the product as delivered by the manufacturer, and _not_ the "consumer cost" for equalizing vehicle.

:cheers:

02gtnh said:

How my FS championships has the S550 won?

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the way the pill talks about the camaro, you'd think there was no way a Camaro would have won 2 out of the last 3 years in his precious F street.


but, alas, a Camaro has indeed walked away as the national champion 2 of the last 3 years. :doh:

lol come on

ZaneWayne said:

The SS is a better car than the GTPP at the track, and they're only $1,100 apart. Could you make the GTPP faster with $1,100 in mods? I doubt it, but maybe.

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Tires.

And it's slightly faster on one specific track. That doesn't make it a better car.

Hack said:

Tires.

And it's slightly faster on one specific track. That doesn't make it a better car.

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Something to back this up, or just a guess? As what track were they close on?

02gtnh said:

Something to back this up, or just a guess? As what track were they close on?

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The one up in Michigan. Test was done back in 2015. Beat it by a tenth I believe.

02gtnh said:

Something to back this up, or just a guess? As what track were they close on?

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Back what up? Are you saying that the GT PP wouldn't be faster with better tires? Isn't it obvious?

You seriously guys need to quit even reading Pill. Amount of stupid bullshit showing he posts about SCCA Solo showing he clearly has no idea about it is unimaginable.

Hack said:

Back what up? Are you saying that the GT PP wouldn't be faster with better tires? Isn't it obvious?

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No, that what do you have to show that the GTPP tires are any worse the the SS runflats. Also, what track were they close on? Simple questions.

kz said:

You seriously guys need to quit even reading Pill. Amount of stupid bullshit showing he posts about SCCA Solo showing he clearly has no idea about it is unimaginable.

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Totally agree. His story and info changes way to much.

02gtnh said:

No, that what do you have to show that the GTPP tires are any worse the the SS runflats. Also, what track were they close on? Simple questions.

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Such a high level of bias! Zayne said there's no mod for $1,100 that could improve the GT PP's performance on the track. I said tires would. Does that clarify it for you?

I still maintain you have more like $4,000 or 5,000 for mods when comparing prices on a GT to an SS.

Hack said:

Such a high level of bias! Zayne said there's no mod for $1,100 that could improve the GT PP's performance on the track. I said tires would. Does that clarify it for you?

I still maintain you have more like $4,000 or 5,000 for mods when comparing prices on a GT to an SS.

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So you think just a tire change will beat a SS?:shrug:

02gtnh said:

So you think just a tire change will beat a SS?:shrug:

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I think simply upgrading from the shitty Pzeros to MPSS would help the GTPP match the SS performance or atleast come within a few tenths. The Goodyear F1 numbers are pretty close to MPSS at the moment.