2018 Adaptive Cruise question.

[HoosierDaddy]

Man, you must be super stealthy to be creeping in my (tiny) backseat to watch me drive without me even knowing.

Here's the solution; won't prevent 100% but a big deterrent:

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[goldengooner]

That's fine, but for some of us there's a convenience level to it that's hard to pass up. ACC makes freeway driving SO much nicer. I'm cruising at 80 and some jackass gets in front of me going 72? No worries, I don't have to reset my CC, it just slows down and maintains distance. It's great...for me...when I want to just cruise.
I don't use it a lot, but when I do it reduces a lot of frustration with fast lane campers.

You don't like it? Cool, you don't need to use it. I love it (and have so far not forgotten how to brake and haven't rear ended anyone in my Mustang or my "dumb" F150 without any of these features).

also as my car is a Canadian spec, I can set it for the speed limit, then let it take over, no worries getting nicked as my speedo is in kph , and when i feel the urge, blow out a few cobwebs then back to the required speed.
On a motorway its just perfect for me, and as for skill, well I drive a Lefty in a Righty country, as I did with my S197 for 4 years, don't think my level has changed. This car with the BLIS and cross traffic warning and the ACC just makes driving a bit less stressful

 

[Norm Peterson]

Man, you must be super stealthy to be creeping in my (tiny) backseat to watch me drive without me even knowing.

Nope, not nearly that good any more. Or sufficiently limber.

What I have is a lot of faith in human nature being to pay less attention when anything they were previously paying fairly close attention to is turned over to machines, electronics, and automation.

I'm betting you don't pay enough attention to the phone number itself of whoever you might frequently call. Maybe you don't pay any attention at all, because you've taught yourself that to do so is unnecessary. Like what you yourself said about convenience being hard to give up; it's easier to let go of things you come to see as being less necessary to the task at hand than not.


Norm

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

Nope, not nearly that good any more. Or sufficiently limber.

What I have is a lot of faith in human nature being to pay less attention when anything they were previously paying fairly close attention to is turned over to machines, electronics, and automation.

I'm betting you don't pay enough attention to the phone number itself of whoever you might frequently call. Maybe you don't pay any attention at all, because you've taught yourself that to do so is unnecessary. Like what you yourself said about convenience being hard to give up; it's easier to let go of things you come to see as being less necessary to the task at hand than not.


Norm

Yeah you’re right. Here’s the difference though. If I forget a phone number I don’t plow into a car going 80 and die.

Pretty big difference.

I taught two of my sons to drive. When I turned the wheel over to them I didn’t just stop paying attention. Why? Because if I did we both may die.
When I turn over the speed to the ACC I don’t stop paying attention or even pay less attention because the consequences are too high.

You make WAY too many ASSumptions over something you really don’t know about.

By your logic the airways should be a death trap due to pilots who forgot how to fly due to atrophied skills because they use autopilot, auto throttle and various other flight aides.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

By your logic the airways should be a death trap due to pilots who forgot how to fly due to atrophied skills because they use autopilot, auto throttle and various other flight aides.

There was logic?

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yeah you’re right. Here’s the difference though. If I forget a phone number I don’t plow into a car going 80 and die.

Pretty big difference.

Huge difference in the potential consequences, sure. But the root cause is the same (you've distanced yourself from the nitty-gritty details of the task).

I taught two of my sons to drive. When I turned the wheel over to them I didn’t just stop paying attention. Why? Because if I did we both may die.
When I turn over the speed to the ACC I don’t stop paying attention or even pay less attention because the consequences are too high.

If you think that you're still as sharp as you would be without using ACC, you're only fooling yourself.

You make WAY too many ASSumptions over something you really don’t know about.

Assuming that you haven't lost a step does not work in your favor. Assuming that you have - which is human nature - does

By your logic the airways should be a death trap due to pilots who forgot how to fly due to atrophied skills because they use autopilot, auto throttle and various other flight aides.

Actually, skill deterioration is an identified concern within that industry and its regulators . . . but don't take my word for it.

http://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5108&context=etd_theses

"Flight Skill Decay with Non-practice

Early research examining the loss or decay of pilot flight skills used crude
flight simulators, or suspended aircraft models. This initial research focused on assessing the recall ability of previously trained skills after a time of disuse, and found that proficiency declines after a period of non-practice (Ammons, Farr, Bloch, Neumann, Dey, Marion, & Ammons, 1958; Fleishman & Parker, 1962; Wright, 1973). Ammons et al. (1958) found that the decay of flight skills was present regardless of the duration of elapsed time without practice. Participants were given up to eight hours of training to proficiency for a simulated flight task. After a “no-practice interval” from 24 hours to two years, a greater loss of skill occurred as time since the last practice increased. Flight skill quickly returned to proficiency, up to 75 percent, in as little as five minutes of practice after the hiatus. Certified pilots also suffered from “profound…rapid… and pervasive” (Childs, Spears, & Prophet, 1983, p. 30) flight skill loss after relatively short 11 periods of non-practice. Private pilots who did not continuously practice flight maneuvers, especially those critical during aircraft emergencies, would quickly lose proficiency in the procedure or the application of those maneuvers in as little as eight months.​

In the case of Colgan Air Flight 3407, when the Captain recognized the aircraft was in an aerodynamic stall, he incorrectly applied the required technique for recovery, exacerbating the condition, and rendered the aircraft unrecoverable (NTSB, 2010). Investigators were unable to determine why a certified Captain would act inappropriately to a flight maneuver that is evaluated during initial and recurrent training. Typically, Captains are required to successfully demonstrate these maneuvers every six months while First Officers receive this training once a year. The training is intended to maintain the proficiency of flight crews in identifying and reacting appropriately to in-flight emergencies. The flying environment today has changed to that of less manual flying and more use of automation. Furthermore, the type of operation also dictates the amount of practice a pilot receives. The shorter trips flown by domestic carriers offer both pilots a daily opportunity to practice their skills. However, that is in sharp contrast to international pilots who may only get a chance to operate the controls a few times per year. Relief pilots during international flights rotate positions to allow the Captain and First Officer an opportunity to rest during cruise flight and normally do not get an opportunity to actually manipulate the controls. The lack of actual flying experience from international flight crews may 12 have contributed to a Sydney bound United Airlines flight that came within 100 feet of a mountain after takeoff from San Francisco in 1999 (Carley, 1999). After experiencing an engine failure, the flying pilot of the B-747-400 did not perform the proper recovery technique, which exacerbated the critical condition of the aircraft and nearly collided with a mountain. The one takeoff and landing the pilot had performed the week before the incident was the first in nearly a year."​

Norm​

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

Yeah without practice skills atrophy. What you posted had nothing to do with using flight aides though, it only had to do with lack of practice.
You have to realize what you posted has nothing to do with what I said right?


You're a know it all Norm. You hate ACC. I got it. Using ACC doesn't have to mean skills atrophy, but I guess you know better than everyone else even though you have never used it.

 

[keith58]

Huge difference in the potential consequences, sure. But the root cause is the same (you've distanced yourself from the nitty-gritty details of the task).



If you think that you're still as sharp as you would be without using ACC, you're only fooling yourself.



Assuming that you haven't lost a step does not work in your favor. Assuming that you have - which is human nature - does



Actually, skill deterioration is an identified concern within that industry and its regulators . . . but don't take my word for it.

http://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5108&context=etd_theses

"Flight Skill Decay with Non-practice

Early research examining the loss or decay of pilot flight skills used crude
flight simulators, or suspended aircraft models. This initial research focused on assessing the recall ability of previously trained skills after a time of disuse, and found that proficiency declines after a period of non-practice (Ammons, Farr, Bloch, Neumann, Dey, Marion, & Ammons, 1958; Fleishman & Parker, 1962; Wright, 1973). Ammons et al. (1958) found that the decay of flight skills was present regardless of the duration of elapsed time without practice. Participants were given up to eight hours of training to proficiency for a simulated flight task. After a “no-practice interval” from 24 hours to two years, a greater loss of skill occurred as time since the last practice increased. Flight skill quickly returned to proficiency, up to 75 percent, in as little as five minutes of practice after the hiatus. Certified pilots also suffered from “profound…rapid… and pervasive” (Childs, Spears, & Prophet, 1983, p. 30) flight skill loss after relatively short 11 periods of non-practice. Private pilots who did not continuously practice flight maneuvers, especially those critical during aircraft emergencies, would quickly lose proficiency in the procedure or the application of those maneuvers in as little as eight months.​

In the case of Colgan Air Flight 3407, when the Captain recognized the aircraft was in an aerodynamic stall, he incorrectly applied the required technique for recovery, exacerbating the condition, and rendered the aircraft unrecoverable (NTSB, 2010). Investigators were unable to determine why a certified Captain would act inappropriately to a flight maneuver that is evaluated during initial and recurrent training. Typically, Captains are required to successfully demonstrate these maneuvers every six months while First Officers receive this training once a year. The training is intended to maintain the proficiency of flight crews in identifying and reacting appropriately to in-flight emergencies. The flying environment today has changed to that of less manual flying and more use of automation. Furthermore, the type of operation also dictates the amount of practice a pilot receives. The shorter trips flown by domestic carriers offer both pilots a daily opportunity to practice their skills. However, that is in sharp contrast to international pilots who may only get a chance to operate the controls a few times per year. Relief pilots during international flights rotate positions to allow the Captain and First Officer an opportunity to rest during cruise flight and normally do not get an opportunity to actually manipulate the controls. The lack of actual flying experience from international flight crews may 12 have contributed to a Sydney bound United Airlines flight that came within 100 feet of a mountain after takeoff from San Francisco in 1999 (Carley, 1999). After experiencing an engine failure, the flying pilot of the B-747-400 did not perform the proper recovery technique, which exacerbated the critical condition of the aircraft and nearly collided with a mountain. The one takeoff and landing the pilot had performed the week before the incident was the first in nearly a year."​

Norm​

As a pilot, I can confirm this is real issue. Modern transport pilots have minimal unusual attitude training and are highly dependent on automated systems during critical phases of challenging approaches. Add in weather, system or mechanical failure that causes a rapid change in pitch or orientation and things can get spicy. There is a thought to take these guys and put them back into aerobatic training but, statically, is it worth it.

That said, in my Fusion I treat my ACC with stop and go as a full autopilot. It's stupid but there are so many demands from the technology we carry with us, mobile devices, it's almost unavoidable without super human discipline.

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

As a pilot, I can confirm this is real issue. Modern transport pilots have minimal unusual attitude training and are highly dependent on automated systems during critical phases of challenging approaches. Add in weather, system or mechanical failure that causes a rapid change in pitch or orientation and things can get spicy. There is a thought to take these guys and put them back into aerobatic training but, statically, is it worth it.

That said, in my Fusion I treat my ACC with stop and go as a full autopilot. It's stupid but there are so many demands from the technology we carry with us, mobile devices, it's almost unavoidable without super human discipline.

Lack of training =\= using technology responsibly though, don't you agree?

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yeah without practice skills atrophy. What you posted had nothing to do with using flight aides though, it only had to do with lack of practice.

Guess it's silly of me to think that among the reasons for humans lacking practice is letting machines do much or most of what could be their practicing for them . . .


Norm

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

Guess it's silly of me to think that among the reasons for humans lacking practice is letting machines do much or most of what could be their practicing for them . . .


Norm

Yeah it is silly because using ACC in certain situations doesn't mean one isn't prepared to take over should it fail and it also doesn't mean I'm not driving totally manually about 90% of the time.

 

[keith58]

Lack of training =\= using technology responsibly though, don't you agree?

Absolutely! Completely the driver's or PIC responsibility. That said there are undeniable human factors in play that might not be solvable with any thing short of full autonomous vehicles. Meaning there is likely a level of automaton that does more harm than good and I see the validity of the argument that we are at that point.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yeah it is silly because using ACC in certain situations doesn't mean one isn't prepared to take over should it fail and it also doesn't mean I'm not driving totally manually about 90% of the time.

Like I keep trying to explain, it's not that you become totally unprepared. Just a little less prepared than you could be.

Preparedness isn't an all-or-nothing matter even though the consequences could be.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's stupid but there are so many demands from the technology we carry with us, mobile devices, it's almost unavoidable without super human discipline.

You don't have to allow any of these technologies to interfere with your driving. It really is possible. Might even be good for you.


Norm

 

[keith58]

You don't have to allow any of these technologies to interfere with your driving. It really is possible. Might even be good for you.


Norm

Agreed. But statistically it's a very real issue. Its human nature to focus on immediate concerns. Even if I behave doesn't mean I won't get killed by someone else. I suggest better ideas are required.

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