XDI High Pressure Fuel Pump upgrade

[TX-Ripper]

The dw400 is your limit, even with a BAP.

You will drop pressure around 720-730 rwhp on E85

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[Andy13186]

The dw400 is your limit, even with a BAP.

You will drop pressure around 720-730 rwhp.

What would the stock pump be good for with a BAP? my dw400 is at 18v made 770 but I went from 3.75 to 3.875 pulley to be safer.

After thinking some more , since the in-tank pump fuels the HP pump and the port injectors I guess you still need to upgrade the in-tank pumps to supply the upgraded hpfp. Does this kind of make this upgraded DI pump pointless in most peoples situations?

 

[TX-Ripper]

50hp less or more

 

[TX-Ripper]

Edit: I should’ve said on e85

 

[engineermike]

I wonder what the max hp on e85 would be with DW400 in tank pump, id1050x and this xtreme DI pump with stock di injectors. I am very interested in this, I am whippled on e85 without a return fuel system currently and I dont want a return style fuel system because of a lot of reasons, fuel heating, or relying on hobbs switches, multiple pumps that could fail, or both being some of the main ones. Just more stuff that could go wrong it seems.

While I completely agree with this sentiment, the problem is that ALL of the fuel still has to be supplied by the DW400. Adding a larger DI pump doesn't change that. If a single DW400 doesn't keep up on a stock DI pump, then it won't keep up on an XDI pump. I still had to add a BAP to my DW400 because my lift pressure was falling below 55 psi with a setpoint of 72, and that's on 93.

Are new DI injectors required at a certain known hp with this setup?

It actually doesn't really work that way. The stock DI pump is big enough to barely maintain 90% GDI on the stock engine. Once supercharged, you have to cut GDI blend (send more to port) as soon as the boost starts coming in. With the bigger GDI pump you can leave it at 90% blend to a much higher power level, but when you hit the injector limit you have to cut blend again. If you wanted to run 90% blend using the XDI pump and stock injectors on 93, boost would be limited to something like 6-7 psi. But at 6-7 psi the gains from 90% blend would be minimal.

I'm running 13 psi and after 8 months of tuning, my blend is dropping to about 75% at 7500 rpm. I could keep it higher with larger injectors. The stock GDI pump wouldn't maintain 60% blend at 10 psi boost.

If you don't want a return style (and you find a tuner that's willing to tune big numbers on returnless) you might look into twin DW440's.

I think a single DW440 on PWM boosted to 22 volts would be the cat's meow. I'm not sure what power it would support on E85 but it would support a ton on gasoline and have the advantage of running the stock turn-down and no return line. If my DW400/BAP runs out of steam, that's my next option.

 

[engineermike]

I did some looking at old logs regarding flow rate of the pumps and this is what I found:

On the stock pump I saw 260 lb/hr at about 80% duty cycle. At the time I was leaving some on the table to allow for colder conditions and cat protect. I later realized that the cat-protect fuel just as well go through port so I was being overly conservative at the time.

On the XDi pump and stock injectors, by dropping pressure to 2600 psi and delaying end-of-injection (EOI) to the point of losing major power, I got 380 lb/hr out of the XDI pump at 90% duty cycle.

On the XDi pump and stock injectors, by optimizing pressure and EOI for the stock injectors, I'm now flowing 350 lb/hr running about 80% duty cycle. This is at 3300 psi. I have a tiny bit more optimization to do here but these numbers are pretty close.

I think the pump is good for 400 lb/hr at 100% duty cycle and larger injectors.

 

[Angrey]

I did some looking at old logs regarding flow rate of the pumps and this is what I found:

On the stock pump I saw 260 lb/hr at about 80% duty cycle. At the time I was leaving some on the table to allow for colder conditions and cat protect. I later realized that the cat-protect fuel just as well go through port so I was being overly conservative at the time.

On the XDi pump and stock injectors, by dropping pressure to 2600 psi and delaying end-of-injection (EOI) to the point of losing major power, I got 380 lb/hr out of the XDI pump at 90% duty cycle.

On the XDi pump and stock injectors, by optimizing pressure and EOI for the stock injectors, I'm now flowing 350 lb/hr running about 80% duty cycle. This is at 3300 psi. I have a tiny bit more optimization to do here but these numbers are pretty close.

I think the pump is good for 400 lb/hr at 100% duty cycle and larger injectors.

Something isn't adding up.

400 lbs/hour is roughly 245 liter/hour.

If this pump is advertised to make nearly 1200 rear, and it's only contributing 245 liter/hour, where is the other 450 liters/hour coming from (on a low estimate for fuel flow at that power level)?

That would mean the PI is still doing most of the heavy lifting (65% of the load). So either the marketing literature is very misleading (given your real flow data) or there's way less benefit than they're implying (I thought the entire point was to use as much high pressure direct fuel as possible to get the benefits of cooling and knock reduction).

What am I missing?

 

[engineermike]

The stock pump can support barely over stock power at 90% blend on gasoline. The xdi pump is rated at 45% over stock. 500x1.45= 725 hp.

Doing it the other way….

400 lb/hr / 0.5 lb/hp-hr bsfc = 800 hp.

So there’s the range; probably 750-800 hp max at 90% blend on gasoline. I don’t think anyone claimed the pump can support 1000+ running 90-100% gdi blend.

 

[Angrey]

The stock pump can support barely over stock power at 90% blend on gasoline. The xdi pump is rated at 45% over stock. 500x1.45= 725 hp.

Doing it the other way….

400 lb/hr / 0.5 lb/hp-hr bsfc = 800 hp.

So there’s the range; probably 750-800 hp max at 90% blend on gasoline. I don’t think anyone claimed the pump can support 1000+ running 90-100% gdi blend.

GDI High Flow Pump HPFP-45 for 2018 Mustang GT 5.0 - Xtreme-Di


"Straight E85 1194whp GDI/PFI combined !!!

no meth, no PFI, no extra ECUs, no wiring, full control, full OBD Diagnostics."

The webpage gives the impression that you can buy this $2500 pump and it will support 1200 rwhp on E85.

So it's either REALLY misleading (if the pump can't flow enough to provide for 1200 rear on even pump gas...which is unrealistic, but typical of fuel component advertisements) or just very misleading (if you can run 1200 rear, but need to purchase a badass low pressure system pump and you're not able to run a high DI/PI ratio, which is the entire selling point, to reduce knock through cooling effect).

Your real world calc's indicate this pump doesn't flow enough to even make 1200 on pump 93, let alone get there on E-85.

The BSFC for E85 is typically 1.1-1.3 for supercharged/turbocharged motors.

That puts the capability (using your reverse) at less than 400 hp on max blend.

And again, if you're using the low pressure pump to do all the work, it kinda defeats the entire purpose of the system, let along dropping $2500 for just the DI pump.

 

[TX-Ripper]

Xdi pump is a total waste of money on E85

 

[andrewtac]

Xdi pump is a total waste of money on E85

If I am running 1050x now on a return system, just upgraded to a bigger blower and maybe I can put on this pump without having to upgrade the injectors and a bigger in tank pumps to get more out of the blower. Price wise I might be better off just going to bigger injectors and pumps, but not sure about down time on car and work time required to install. Not saying it is a better choice, but might be an option is why I was looking at it.

 

[TX-Ripper]

You need to think about larger port injectors as a safety net.

You want head room for when a pump fails mid pull and the oversized port injector can dump fuel and save your engine...

XDI pump for your set up is a waste of money unless you are trying to make 50 more hp on E10 93 octane.

 

[_eco_beast]

I have a 2019 mustang gt , 6spd .. I want to be able run e85 in the car with the whipple stage 2 kit. I’ll have the dw400 in tank pump but I also will have Id 1050 injectors . Would that be enough for fuel mods to run e85 in the 7-800whp range ? I was looking into buying this pump as well but with some of these comments not sure if A. I even need it or B. It even achieves much extra without having a big return style fuel system .

 

[TX-Ripper]

XDI is not for the e85 guys, its for guys trying to make more power on E0 to E10 91 to 93 octane.

Your dw400 low side will limit you to low 700 rwhp with a bap.

Not very smart to go this route.

 

[Mghoward74]

If I am running 1050x now on a return system, just upgraded to a bigger blower and maybe I can put on this pump without having to upgrade the injectors and a bigger in tank pumps to get more out of the blower. Price wise I might be better off just going to bigger injectors and pumps, but not sure about down time on car and work time required to install. Not saying it is a better choice, but might be an option is why I was looking at it.

If you want this pump to shine, you're going to need the cam and DI injectors, along with the pump. With all that, there will be no need for any other additional fuel components including port injectors

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