Solved: Woodpecker in my valve train ??

[K4fxd]

Whenever I replace a part then have issues I always start with the part I replaced. I'd say 80% it is that part.

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[Jhalil101]

Well my buddy and I pulled apart the car again, only took about 1.5 hours to get the chains back off (scary how good I’ve gotten at it). The stethoscope didn’t help pinpoint the sound in the hollow front cover as well as I thought it would so here’s where I’m at:


Once I got the cover off I turned the motor over a few times by hand and noticed slack in the chain when the crankshaft was in certain positions (enough to fit a finger under). This slack can be found in both chains so I’m not sure if this tells anything about there being noise on just one side. Although the chain on the passenger side would hang down away from the chain guide when there is slack instead of laying on it. Is this amount of deflection normal? Perhaps that’s why only one side is making noise? Not sure about that one.

Decided to also pull off the cam phasers to look them over and double check the timing on the cams. I’m not leaving any stone unturned this time around. Haven’t inspected the phasers yet but will in the morning and will also check the oil filters in the camshaft while they’re off.

Forgot that the bolt for the phasers are one time use bolts so if anyone knows where I can grab the bolts in pink or know what the part numbers are so I can grab some from the dealer on Friday I’d appreciate it, can’t find the exhaust side bolt anywhere online.

I’ll keep you guys updated, probably won’t mess with the car much tomorrow with it being thanksgiving and the dealership being closed leaving me unable to pickup the phaser bolts to reassemble the car.

Also happy thanksgiving!

 

[Rapid Red]

Sure does show a reason for the noise, as the motor get the heat . That chain will take up some slack and get a bit quieter, listening to mine. Suspect with adjustable on the fly timing, phase shifting, all that goodness will rattle.

Think if ever asked about the noise going to say the motor has solids. And will be believed.

Interesting to see this, I wish I could help out with the bolts. But it's Thanksgiving here also LOL you knew that.

Good work over there.

 

[Jhalil101]

Sure does show a reason for the noise, as the motor get the heat . That chain will take up some slack and get a bit quieter, listening to mine. Suspect with adjustable on the fly timing, phase shifting, all that goodness will rattle.

Think if ever asked about the noise going to say the motor has solids. And will be believed.

Interesting to see this, I wish I could help out with the bolts. But it's Thanksgiving here also LOL you knew that.

Good work over there.

The sound doesn’t get any quieter once the car is warmed up or at different rpms. That’s and the fact that I wasn’t making the sound before is leading me to believe that this isn’t a normal characteristic.

Spent a few hours searching and searching and I believe I found the phaser bolts. There is absolutely zero information online about them so I’ll post my findings below. I’ll wait until I get the actual bolts in hand to confirm but they apear to even have the same stampings so I’m pretty confident I’ve got the right ones.

I’ll probably start reassembling the car with the old bolts by just snugging them up to the phasers and the before I finish I’ll pull the old bolts out and torque in the new ones since you can access them through the valve covers just to keep some momentum on this project.

As always, I’ll keep this thread updated as I progress.

 

[K4fxd]

Are the tensioners spring or hydraulic operated?

When I see a chain being tight then loose like that it 99% means a sprocket is wobbling.

I have had to replace many HD clutch basket bearings from not being able to adjust the primary chain.

Looks just like your cam chains, tight then very loose. Always causes noise.

 

[thelostotter]

The alternating slack/tension on the cam chain is normal. The lobes on the cams and valve springs will want to rotate the cam to a neutral location, so it will alternate wanting to spin clockwise or counterclockwise.

If the crank sprocket is not machined concentrically then that is going to cause way more chain movement than the tensioner can handle. Or if the tensioners are not operating appropriately to maintain constant chain tension then that is also an issue. But the apparent slack when rotating the crank by hand isn't a problem by itself.

Measuring the concentricity of the crank sprocket teeth to the ID of the gear is pretty difficult. If you have a set of calipers you could try to measure the tooth height and see if there if one side is relatively lower or higher.

 

[K4fxd]

Good to know, I have not yet done chains on a coyote, so just going by past experience.

 

[Jhalil101]

Update: Reinstalled the timing chains and everything looks identical so I don’t think that will solve it.. Decided to put the oem sprocket back on. Fingers crossed..

 

[Elp_jc]

I bet that will solve your issue, since it appeared when you installed that sprocket. Too much coincidence to be anything else IMO. Hey, what kind of socket do you need for the 3 bolts on the Borg Warner phaser? And can you post pictures of the other phaser internals? Curious what it looks like. The 3.5EB motors use BorgWarner phasers in all 4 locations. Those are the ones that 'ratchet' when blipping the throttle and engine is cold. Thx.

 

[Jmtoast]

Here for the pics of the woodpecker.

 

[Jhalil101]

Had some success today! Got a tip from my buddy that it sounds like a bad phaser, found it strange because there’s are hardly any post about this happening to these newer coyotes. I ending up looking up what it sounds like in some other older Ford V8 engines and heard some similarities so I decided to look deeper into the phasers.

Looked close at each phaser and saw that they were identical so I got the brilliant idea to swap the LH and RH units. Threw the car back together with the MMR billet crank sprocket still on and fired it up (left the serpentine belt off also to rule out other variables).

To my surprise the sound was still present but much quieter, and even more importantly the sound had moved to the opposite side of the motor! It seems like the phaser was the problem part. Hunted down a part number and my local Ford had one in stock ($200 part btw). Ordered it and the a set of bolts for each side using the part numbers I previously listed, which turned out to be the correct numbers. The exhaust side bolts will be in Tuesday so I will update maybe Thursday or Friday once I have the car completely reassembled to 100% confirm the problem is resolved.

I might have been able to fight with the dealer and get the repair covered under warranty but it wasn't worth the hassle to me.

I bet that will solve your issue, since it appeared when you installed that sprocket. Too much coincidence to be anything else IMO. Hey, what kind of socket do you need for the 3 bolts on the Borg Warner phaser? And can you post pictures of the other phaser internals? Curious what it looks like. The 3.5EB motors use BorgWarner phasers in all 4 locations. Those are the ones that 'ratchet' when blipping the throttle and engine is cold. Thx.

Just used a 16 point 10mm socket. Not sure if that’s the actual socket you’re supposed to use but it worked perfect for me.

To answer your second question I’ll try and do a tear down of the problem phaser and post my findings after the car is comple.

 

[Jhalil101]

Didn’t really feel like typing up paragraphs about it but just so everyone knows the noise wasn’t coming from the cam phaser... The sound was actually coming from the idler pulley of all places. I suspect that since the pulley mounts to the hollow cover the sound was echoing inside it and the plastic valve covers were where the sound was able to escape from the easiest, making it sound like it was coming from the cam phaser.

Thanks to everyone for your help in solving this mystery. Still not sure how it happened but I’m just glad it’s fixed. Not sure why I never thought to the check the serpentine belt and it’s components, guess you win some and lose some.

 

[K4fxd]

It's funny how noise will travel.

Glad you got it solved

 

[ice445]

Didn’t really feel like typing up paragraphs about it but just so everyone knows the noise wasn’t coming from the cam phaser... The sound was actually coming from the idler pulley of all places. I suspect that since the pulley mounts to the hollow cover the sound was echoing inside it and the plastic valve covers were where the sound was able to escape from the easiest, making it sound like it was coming from the cam phaser.

Thanks to everyone for your help in solving this mystery. Still not sure how it happened but I’m just glad it’s fixed. Not sure why I never thought to the check the serpentine belt and it’s components, guess you win some and lose some.

Thanks for the update, sorry for sending you on a wild goose chase. I suppose all issues become complex without following the diagnostic tree, from the roots all the way to the top branches.

At least you leveled up your skill at disassembling and reassembling the Coyote though, that's hopefully worth a few of the dollars you lost.

 

[CJJon]

Sound issues in cars can be like finding a leak in a roof. Sound, like water, can travel far away from the source.

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