Winter Tire Help Please

Dana Pants

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I've had no issues driving in active snow storms with either car. No "snow mode" either. Sport/Track rain or shine.

Not sure where you're getting your info on compounds either. Both sets of performance winters I have start getting unusably soft and squirmy above 40 degrees. They're plenty soft down into the teens, well below the temperature where all-seasons become rocks.

Maybe it's you that's the problem :giggle:
Boston to Tremblant in a snowstorm, I’m not particularly timid about the snow, but it would be nice to disengage full send mode once and a while:
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Mikthehun1

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Boston to Tremblant in a snowstorm, I’m not particularly timid about the snow, but it would be nice to disengage full send mode once and a while:
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Trust me, the PA4's would have done the drive without any fuss. I wouldn't recommend "full send" on any tire in bad conditions. I'm just saying that my experience with the perf winters has been very confidence inspiring in a wide range of conditions. I don't want people to think all-seasons are adequate for proper winter driving. They simply are not up to the task.
 
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geep81

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Anecdotal evidence won't convince me vs the science of it. The rubber compound needed to be a great sports car tire is different than a great snow tire. You can find a happy medium, but it will always be a compromise.

I don't want to compromise, I want the best snow handling tire I can get.
 

Mikthehun1

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Anecdotal evidence won't convince me vs the science of it. The rubber compound needed to be a great sports car tire is different than a great snow tire. You can find a happy medium, but it will always be a compromise.

I don't want to compromise, I want the best snow handling tire I can get.
Here's some science then. Compound isn't as much a factor in outright snow performance. Snow and ice stick to snow and ice better than the even the softest rubber. Tread block design is more a factor there. If it picks up and packs the snow efficiently, it will grip snow.

The compound is for pavement. The tread is for snow.

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br_an

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TLDW;January 2020, Jonathan Benson drove from London to the Swiss Alps in a Porsche 992 911 w/ Michelin Pilot Alpin 5 tires. He also stopped to race, and won.
 
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geep81

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Here's some science then. Compound isn't as much a factor in outright snow performance. Snow and ice stick to snow and ice better than the even the softest rubber. Tread block design is more a factor there. If it picks up and packs the snow efficiently, it will grip snow.

The compound is for pavement. The tread is for snow.
Nothing said here refutes my statement that a dedicated snow tire will be better for that purpose than a performance snow tire, right?

If you like PA4s that's fine, but they were never ever on my radar and it seems really silly to argue that they would be better than X-Ice Snows for driving in the snow. The tradeoff might be worth it for you I can get that.
 

Mikthehun1

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Nothing said here refutes my statement that a dedicated snow tire will be better for that purpose than a performance snow tire, right?

If you like PA4s that's fine, but they were never ever on my radar and it seems really silly to argue that they would be better than X-Ice Snows for driving in the snow. The tradeoff might be worth it for you I can get that.
It literally does, but...

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br_an

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Anecdotal evidence won't convince me vs the science of it.
Since you're looking for science, how about some testing by Tire Rack?

Tire Rack Testing Performance Winter / Snow Tires
Tire Rack tested the Bridgestone Blizzak LM-60, Dunlop SP Winter Sport 4D, Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4, and Pirelli Winter Sottozero 3.

Summary

Compared with Studless Ice & Snow winter tires, Performance Winter / Snow tires deliver better handling on clear roads along with improved wet and dry traction in winter's cold temperatures. The tradeoff comes with modestly lower ice and snow traction. But when winter weather strikes, Performance Winter / Snow tires still deliver better performance than the best all-season tires.

The Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 delivers the best balance of performance in this group, driving well on the road plus providing good ice, snow and very good wet traction. The new Pirelli Winter Sottozero 3 and Dunlop SP Winter Sport 4D both have good ice and wet traction and nearly matched the Pilot Alpin PA4's handling out on the road. The Bridgestone Blizzak LM60 takes a more focused approach by also providing good snow and ice traction, but it just doesn't have the wet road grip or clear road handling stability or precision of the other three tires.
Tire Rack test video

Tire Ratings Chart
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geep81

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Wonder why they didn't test the X-ice Snow in there, which is rated higher than all of those tires on just about every test I've seen.

They also didn't use the better Blizzak WS80 in the test for snow.

They also left off ice completely. What a fair test of snow tires. 😂
 

br_an

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Wonder why they didn't test the X-ice Snow in there, which is rated higher than all of those tires on just about every test I've seen.

They also didn't use the better Blizzak WS80 in the test for snow.

They also left off ice completely. What a fair test of snow tires. 😂
Those aren't performance winter tires. It is a different category of winter tire. You're looking for this test...

Tire Rack Testing Studless Ice & Snow Winter Tires
 
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geep81

geep81

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Those aren't performance winter tires. It is a different category of winter tire. You're looking for this test...

Tire Rack Testing Studless Ice & Snow Winter Tires
Exactly, in which those PA4s don't even compare. I was looking for a real winter tire, not a compromised performance winter tire that isn't as good.

I would like the best I can get for snow driving. I bought X-Ice Snows yesterday.
 

br_an

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No one is arguing that Blizzak WS90s or Micheline X-Ice aren't great tires - they are extraordinarily good in snow and ice conditions, but you do give up some of the wet/dry handling performance. If you're mostly going to drive on snow and ice they are definitely the tire you want for winter, in my opinion.

I've had WS90s on a Mustang for a couple of winters. They're great for snow and ice, but a little too 'meh' in the dry for my taste, and I don't drive in the snow enough to ignore wet/dry performance. That's where the performance winter tire comes in. As Tire Rack puts it in their testing summary "Performance Winter / Snow tires deliver better handling on clear roads along with improved wet and dry traction in winter's cold temperatures. The tradeoff comes with modestly lower ice and snow traction." I'll take that trade off.
 

Mikthehun1

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No one is arguing that Blizzak WS90s or Micheline X-Ice aren't great tires - they are extraordinarily good in snow and ice conditions, but you do give up some of the wet/dry handling performance. If you're mostly going to drive on snow and ice they are definitely the tire you want for winter, in my opinion.

I've had WS90s on a Mustang for a couple of winters. They're great for snow and ice, but a little too 'meh' in the dry for my taste, and I don't drive in the snow enough to ignore wet/dry performance. That's where the performance winter tire comes in. As Tire Rack puts it in their testing summary "Performance Winter / Snow tires deliver better handling on clear roads along with improved wet and dry traction in winter's cold temperatures. The tradeoff comes with modestly lower ice and snow traction." I'll take that trade off.
My thoughts exactly. Unless you're driving exclusively in the snow, the tradeoff on cleared roads isn't worth it. Plus, they're great for early spring weather when it's still too cold for the summer set.
 

br_an

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This probably won't convince geep81 these tires are worth a damn in the snow, but PA4s are 3PMSF-branded, which means they meet certain criteria for winter performance to be considered severe snow service-rated.
 
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