Why did you sell your GT350?

[Hack]

Agreed they are not value cars, but I disagree they are only momentum cars. I think they are more into balance than anything and repeatable lap times. Which, I can see and agree makes them a bit boring to drive, especially on the street.

I wouldn't just look at the numbers as even a base Carrera will keep up with most GT350 non Rs. The new Carrera S and GTS (not to mention the higher versions), especially with a PDK will out accelerate any stock GT350, including the Rs pretty easily. If it is a manual than an R has a better chance. They are considerably lighter than GT350s and can take the abuse.

But, I do agree with your overall points. I've specced out a manual GTS and just didn't see the value in paying 130k for it over other cars like the GT350s, Camaro SS/ZL1 or even my M3 for that matter.

The really expensive Porsches are definitely more than momentum cars. I'm not looking at numbers; I was only comparing the GT3 I drove on track to GT350s. I haven't really looked at the numbers on less expensive Porsches. I've only driven those on the street and for me they weren't interesting enough for the cost.

I think your M3 was a good choice. I like BMWs as well. I have seriously considered an M2, and the M2 competition is even more tempting. If I had the engine issues that you did, I might be in an M2 now.

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[Minn19]

The really expensive Porsches are definitely more than momentum cars. I'm not looking at numbers; I was only comparing the GT3 I drove on track to GT350s. I haven't really looked at the numbers on less expensive Porsches. I've only driven those on the street and for me they weren't interesting enough for the cost.

I think your M3 was a good choice. I like BMWs as well. I have seriously considered an M2, and the M2 competition is even more tempting. If I had the engine issues that you did, I might be in an M2 now.

I was very tempted by a new M2 Competition. But, since I was going from three to two cars and it was going to my DD, I opted for the convenience of a bigger 4 door car. I also looked really hard at a Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, but I wanted to still have a manual.

Any way, nice to talk to you and hopefully we meet up at DCTC this summer. It would be fun to run the M3 against the GT350 with two pretty evenly matched drivers.

 

[CANTWN4LSN]

The title of this thread is why did you sell your GT350, not why did you sell your GT 350 AD NAUSEAM.

 

[key01]

It’s ridiculous

 

[jpindustrie]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this post. Heard all the same crap about the HC when they came out. People were paying $90k for a 2015. Then dodge makes 16,000+ of them in 2016. Look at the C7 ADM when they came out. Tens of thousands of units later GM has new 2017 Z06's on the lot...at 25% discount. Cant give them away. I'm not sure anybody in their right mind should look at the mass produced variant of a pony car from Dodge, Ford, or Chevrolet as an investment. ..... There are no gold nuggets from the big three. There just isn't anymore. The dealers all want you to think they are tho, and people believe them. Dealers are like politicians. They lie...alot.

Very good points ...

Id add too that we all contribute to this 'problem' too , complaining to manufacturers and OEMs that "ADMs are the devil" "what can YOU guys do about the ADMs?"

Well the only thing they can do is build more, and they did - each following year. I contributed as well , as did a few others voting with our wallets.

 

[IPOGT]

A Dodge dealer who sold us our new Challenger has around six demons in stock and is just sitting on them.
In 2019, it's a bad bet. No major manufacturer is going to limit anything that has strong demand.
A smaller Shelby will, Dodge or Ford will not. That's why the building of the GT is outsourced.
Any thoughts to the contrary would be counterproductive for a major company.

 

[White_GT_CS]

This was a very eye opening thread.

No question that a GT350 is a special car with an amazing engine. And if you consider yourself an enthusiast then you should have no qualms on having to check and fill oil every 2nd fill-up. That is what makes an enthusiast.

How often are we going to find a $60K vehicle competing (and BEATING) vehicles that are 3x as costly? Where are your priorities if you're comparing/complaining about fit 'n finish, which we all know is not up to par with other more costly vehicles?

I'm not in a position to afford a GT350 right now, but as God is my witness, I will absolutely own a GT350 one day. Despite the GT350s short-comings, I want one.

Enjoy the last of the 500+ HP, Naturally Aspirated, RWD, V8s with manual transmissions. There will not be any more of these in the near future.

 

[Digitalwiz]

Chiming in here as I’ve owned newer 911’s and my last car was an R8. I can tell you, if you are looking at the 911 as underpowered because it doesn’t spin wheels, you dont understand the 911. the 911 is an amazing car, handling, road feedback are both legendary. The wheels dont slip because the car has amazing grip with the engine over the rear wheels. That makes is more than competitive with higher hp cars off the line. The bottom line is that Porsche 911’s dont need as much raw hp to compete and win due to the characteristics of the car.

I just bought a GT350 3 weeks ago. Why did i sell an R8 and then get the 350? It was a bargain for this FPC drivetrain. I’d have to spend 4x the amount I paid to get this drivetrain in a European car.

So, i’m Trying it out just on the merits of the engine/manual tranny, and relative to the competition, price. So far, its very good. ....for the price.

 

[Hack]

Chiming in here as I’ve owned newer 911’s and my last car was an R8. I can tell you, if you are looking at the 911 as underpowered because it doesn’t spin wheels, you dont understand the 911. the 911 is an amazing car, handling, road feedback are both legendary. The wheels dont slip because the car has amazing grip with the engine over the rear wheels. That makes is more than competitive with higher hp cars off the line. The bottom line is that Porsche 911’s dont need as much raw hp to compete and win due to the characteristics of the car.

I just bought a GT350 3 weeks ago. Why did i sell an R8 and then get the 350? It was a bargain for this FPC drivetrain. I’d have to spend 4x the amount I paid to get this drivetrain in a European car.

So, i’m Trying it out just on the merits of the engine/manual tranny, and relative to the competition, price. So far, its very good. ....for the price.

So, you think that horsepower in the 300s for a car that's now over $110,000 to start is plenty of power?

My main objections to Porsches are that on the street Porsches are not exciting, and that they are not a good value. Maybe if I were making 3x as much money I would think they are fine because I wouldn't care that they are overpriced.

I can say that the main reasons I sold my GT350 are that I really liked the size and balance of my 944 and I decided I wanted a car that was smaller, lower to the ground and with better weight balance. So, the experience of driving a Porsche on the road and on track did impact my decision. Even though it was the Yugo of Porsches. The 2004 Z06 was not built to lap on the road course like the GT350, but once I add some cooling I think it will be great. They say the GT350 hides its weight well, but if you drive a car that weighs a lot less you will definitely notice a difference, especially on a rough road or on track.

Another significant reason I sold my Mustang is I wanted to try something different. I've owned many, many Mustangs and only recently bought other brands than Ford. Almost like a bucket list kind of thing.

 

[tracktardicus]

I have to disagree that any 2000+ model year Porsche, or any car with more than, say, 250HP and lighter than 3400 lbs is a momentum car. 250 HP is still a lot of power to conceal errors beginning drivers make on the street or on the track. 150 HP is the max based on what I've driven. Opinions may vary.

 

[Hack]

I have to disagree that any 2000+ model year Porsche, or any car with more than, say, 250HP and lighter than 3400 lbs is a momentum car. 250 HP is still a lot of power to conceal errors beginning drivers make on the street or on the track. 150 HP is the max based on what I've driven. Opinions may vary.

150 hp was a lot in 1950 with bias ply tires and poor suspension design. In 2019 it's fine for an economy car, but way too little power to call a car sporty - unless the car is super light weight. If a car is 2,000 lbs 150 hp could make it fun, but at 3,400 lbs the car would be definitely all about maintaining momentum. Acceleration is not really a thing. For example my 944 was fun on track, but not so much on the street. Well - I should say it can be fun on tight corners because you don't have to slow down. You can actually hold the throttle to the floor through many corners. And at least the 944 has neutral weight bias - not an excess of weight over the drive wheels. In my mind the 944 makes sense, because you can buy one for less than $5K. In the context of a super cheap car and the low performance expectations that go with that they are really good in my opinion.

IMO in a fun car you should have to be careful when you jump on the gas and you have to carefully meter it out. For $50k + I would expect a manufacturer of a "sporty" car to offer that.

I don't know what errors on the track have to do with whether a car will be enjoyable to drive. I'm sure a 2019 Porsche 911 with 370 hp for $113,000 would be a blast on the track, if you have the money for track days after spending so much on your car. You also have to be ready to potentially destroy the car while on track. That car IMO is somewhat boring on the street, because you can floor it and there's no drama at all. It's definitely not $113k fun is my thought. And with a mid or rear engine layout, even a car with ~400 hp can become more of a momentum car because the balance and grip are so high.

 

[pdac]

Enjoy the last of the 500+ HP, Naturally Aspirated, RWD, V8s with manual transmissions. There will not be any more of these in the near future.

Lol, people have been saying this for 15+ years.
Bringing things back on topic, I've been wondering the same thing as the OP. Since I've gotten into the market for a slightly used 2017-18 GT350 this past year, I've been watching these preowned market closely and I've been surprised at how many very low mileage examples are available, many of them with multiple owners. That along with the fact that the prices are dropping significantly on the used GT350s every week has me wondering what's going on as well.

 

[tracktardicus]

I guess it's a matter of perspective. My perspective is it's easy to drive a modern Porsche and other high-hp cars with nannies fast on a track-enjoyable, but easy. It makes beginning drivers look good. Driving a 2800 lb 2nd gen Mazda RX7 with a 1.8 liter Miata motor takes a lot of skill to drive fast on a track, and is rewarding and fun. You make a mistake with 140 hp and all your momentum is gone-hence the name momentum car. On the street you will never make the distinction.

 

[firestarter2]

I guess it's a matter of perspective. My perspective is it's easy to drive a modern Porsche and other high-hp cars with nannies fast on a track-enjoyable, but easy. It makes beginning drivers look good. Driving a 2800 lb 2nd gen Mazda RX7 with a 1.8 liter Miata motor takes a lot of skill to drive fast on a track, and is rewarding and fun. You make a mistake with 140 hp and all your momentum is gone-hence the name momentum car. On the street you will never make the distinction.

I have thought about this before when talking to miata guys. I would think some things would be easier in a miata than a high power car. You are going slower so you have more time to do things, you have less weight, more grip relative to you weight.

While its easy to drive high HP fast from a time POV I would not say its easy to get all of the potential out of the car. I would say its just as hard to drive a high HP car at a good pace (for a high HP car) than it is to get a good time out of Miata. I would argue a high HP car is harder to driver at a good time.

Said another way it its no easier to drive a perfect lap in a high HP car than it is in a Miata. I would actually say them Miata is easier to drive a perfect lap because everything is happening more slowly and you level of grip to power is better.

 

[tracktardicus]

I have to disagree here. I have a high-hp car (GT350R) that I took to the track and immediately I was doing extremely fast laps with little effort. I have beginning students who drive GT350's, Corvette Z06'es, Porsche Turbos, etc. who are easily doing faster laps by 5-10-second margins per lap than our fastest National-Champion contender Spec Miata drivers. I drive momentum cars in endurance races, and it's taken me many laps and a few hard-earned lessons to build up the skill required to drive a momentum car consistently well (and I'm still not that great of a driver.)
It's harder to drive a Miata or other momentum car at or near the limit because mistakes are so much more amplified due to the lack of power to throttle your way out of an error. Yes, it's easy to start because things are happening a lot slower (which is why a momentum car is a much better choice than a Corvette or Mustang for beginning drivers.) But if you have built up the driving feel and car control skills to consistently drive a momentum car at the limit, you can drive virtually anything else. You will struggle to drive a momentum car consistently at the limit if you are coming from only high-hp nanny-assisted modern cars.
Put another way from the perspective of lap times, if you make an error with a high-horsepower car, it may make a difference of a half-second or so in lap times. If you make an error in a momentum car in a turn leading up to the longest straight on a track, you could be talking a 3-second hit in lap times.

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